CAD System

[dabsr]

Hello all,

I have an issue that I need assistance with.

I've only owned one computer and it lasted me 8 years ... I bought it a little more beefed up so I wouldn't need to upgrade too soon. I made some money with it using AutoCAD and the Windows versions of Adobe Illustrator and Photoshop.

Well, it's time to upgrade and I'd like your help.

In addition to AutoCAD, I will be running some older softwares that are having trouble with Vista ... so I'm going to have a machine built with Windows XP.

Money IS an object and I have limited funds, so I am using all the tools I can to maximize my choice of machine ...and that includes your input.

So here goes:

The softwares installed will be;

-AutoCAD ... probably 2 versions, 2000 & 2004
-Adobe Illustrator
-Adobe Photoshop
-Adobe Acrobat
-Microsoft Word
-Microsoft Excel
-DVD authoring software
-Music editing software
-Website authoring software

The primary uses of the machine will be;

-Creation of 2D & 3D drawings (AutoCAD)
-Creation of .pdf's from AutoCAD drawings
-Transferring files to and from FTP sites
-E-mail
-Internet use for on-line classes and project collaboration
-Editing and maintaining my own Website content


Secondary uses will be;

-Scanning photos in
-Editing photos (Photoshop)
-Creation of vector line drawins (Illustrator)
-Downloading digitial camera and video content and editing the content
-Maintaining, downloading and editing music for my iPod
-Maintaining and editing a library of family photos

Which version of Windows XP - Home or Professional, would best suite my needs ?

I have a few machine configurations I've come up with from various vendors that I will post after some responses to this come in. The configurations may be tweaked after some of your input.

As always, I thank you in advance and I appreciate all your input.

[CromCruithne]

A few questions:
1. What is your budget? It's hard to suggest a build if we don't know the price range.

2. What version of AutoCAD?

3. Are you including a monitor in the build price?

One of the problems you'll run into, is that a lot of those programs are extremely CPU intensive. I'd personally suggest a dual core.
Just doing a quick scan of newegg.com I figure you could have a decent rig without monitor for about 700$ US.

-Crom

[dabsr]

Hey Crom,

As listed, I'll probably be running 2000i & 2004 as well as the other softwares listed.

As for a monitor, sorry about that ... but yes, I'd like to include it in the configuration ... a 19" or 20" flat LCD

As for the budget, the systems I have configured right now are between $1,900 and $2,300 dollars.

About the dual core ... I've read numerous tech blogs (in regards to AutoCAD specifically) that state that dual core don't really take advantage of both cores even after system tweaks.

I'm not tech savvy enough to do those tweaks or have faith in the system configs I came up with, that's why I'm enlisting this great forum for help.

With some more feedback, I'll post two of the better configs for review and comment by forum members.

D

[zars]

I'm thinking on buying one for me and think that this might help you as well

17'' LCD
Intel Core2Duo E4300 1.8Ghz 800Mhz Soc 775
2Gb DDR2 RAM
512 PCIe Video card
250 or 300 Gb HD
DVD burner

And more stuff, here in mex this is from 1,300 to 1,500 so probably you can get something similar around 1,000 or less

[CromCruithne]

dabsr - Most CAD magazines agree that CAD runs better with a dual-core. Most high end graphics packages are put together to take advantage of multiple cores. For that budget, you can build an almost top of the line machine. Computer parts are much cheaper than they were 8 years ago.
Are you considering building a machine or buying one?

I'll do a little research and put together a couple builds for you to consider.

To both dabsr and zars - When it comes to graphics cards, the onboard memory matters very little. It needs to be OpenGL 1.1 or 2.0 compliant, have a decent number of pixel pipelines (at least 16) and a good memory bandwidth (at least 128 ). I can get a 512 MB card that would choke on CAD.
On the other hand, a 128 MB FireGL card will have relatively smooth sailing.

[dabsr]

To Crom and zars ... thanks for the input - it is much appreciated.

Crom, I plan on buying becasue of my lack of knowledge in the interactions of components and what the best ones would be for my needs and budget.

The price range mentioned earlier is based on the system configs I pieced together from different manufacturers and one mom and pop shop.

Here at work, I'm running several versions of AutoCAD on a refurbished Dell Pentium 4, 2.26GHz, 640MB on Windows XP Professional V.2002, SP2 and even with the smallest 2D detail, it makes me wish I were still on the boards.

So any configuration I get will (should) be a completley different world, but i still want to be smart and use my cash wiseley

[CromCruithne]

I can understand not being comfortable building your own. Are you at least comfortable adding components like Graphics Cards? I ask, because you can get the cards a lot cheaper than a computer company will offer.

-Crom

[CromCruithne]

I don't know where you've been looking, but try www.xicomputer.com They specialize in workstations. I was just playing around there configured this:

Price: 1,622$ (No shipping added yet)
CPU: AMD 5200+ Dual-core at 2.6 GHz a core
RAM: 2 GB DDR2 800
Graphics Card: nVidia® Quadro FX 350 128MB DDR2 PCIe 1xDVI-I 1xVGA
Dual Head
This is an entry level workstation card, certified for CAD
Monitor: 20" Viewsonic LCD
Hard Drive: 250 GB SATAII
Optical Drive: 18x DVD burner
Onboard Sound and Windows XP Pro

The Intel based systems are a little more expensive, but not much.

-Crom

[dabsr]

Hey Crom,

Yea, I also went to Xi but haven't config'd one yet.

For the ones I did, liek the example below, I beefed it up now in order to try and avoid upgrading for at least 5 years ...

I've added to my old machine, internal items once or twice but I'm so reluctant because of the lack of knowledge about compatability conflicts with other components and if I'm adding something that will fully complement what I already have installed.


I configured this machine from Velocity Micro

Intel Core 2 Duo proc. E6600 w/dual 2.4 GHz cores, 4MB L2 Cache

2048 MB Corsair DDR2 PC5300 DDR667 Memory

512 MB eVGA NVIDIA GeForce 7600 GS, Dual heads

19" Viewsonic LCD

OnBoard Integrated Intel Hi Def 7.1 Chan. Sound

Hard Drive 1 - 400 GB West. Dig. 4000YR 7200rpm SATA/150, 16 MB Cache
Hard Drive 2 - 250 GB West. Dig. WD2500KS 7200rpm SATA/300, 16 MB Cache

Optical Drv. 1 - 20x Lie On DVD+/-RW CD-RW Dual layer
Optical Drv. 2 - 18x Plextor DVD+/-RW (PX-760A) Dual layer

8-in-1 Floppy drive & MEdia RTeader Combo

USB Drv. 2 GB Corsair Flash Voyager 2.0 Drive

Integr. 10/100/1000 MBps Gigabit Ethernet Netw. Adapt.

Windows XP Pro SP2


This comes in at $2,809 ...a little on the maximum side of by budget but configed as a comparison for other machines.



Another I've configured one from a mom & pop shop below


Processor Dual-Core Intel Core™ 2 Duo E6400 2.13GHz 1066FSB 2MB Cache

Motherboard Intel D946GZIS Desktop Board

Memory 2 x 1GB PC5300 667MHz DDR2

Video Card MSI nVidia 7600GS 512MB DDRII PCI Express ( 2xDVI )

3.5" Drive Bay(s) 1.44Mb 3.5" Floppy Drive Black

Apacer 15-in-1 Card Reader

5.25" Drive Bay(s) Sony 52x32x32x16 CDRW / DVD Combo
Sony 18x DVD+/-RW Dual Layer

Hard Drive(s) 250GB Serial ATA 7200 RPM - Seagate Barracuda 7200.10
320GB Serial ATA 7200 RPM - Seagate Barracuda 7200.10

Network Interface ZOOM INT PCI 56K V.90 & V.92

Network Interface Intel PRO/1000 GT Desktop Adapter

Sound Card Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Xtreme Audio

Monitor AOC 203P - 20" TFT LCD - 12ms - 700:1 - 1600x1200

Peripherals Microsoft Multimedia Value Pack Keyboard & Mouse (PS/2, USB)

Power Protection APC Back-UPS CS 500VA

Operating System Microsoft Windows XP Professional

Software Symantec Norton AntiVirus 2007 OEM
Microsoft Office Basic 2007

Price $ 1964.12

[CromCruithne]

They're both overpriced for one simple reason: Out of date RAM.
PC 5300 is a little old by todays standards. If you're trying to avoid upgrading constantly, I'd go for PC 6400 or better. I'd definitely check out Xi. You can get a better machine for cheaper and it'll have all name brand parts to boot.

I can promise that both places are over-charging you a huge amount on that video card. I can buy it from newegg.com right now for 113$ I have no issue with a modest mark up, but I'll bet they list it near 200$ if not higher. Also, that card is just a little weak for all the graphics work you're doing.

-Crom

[dabsr]

Excellent advice Mr. ComCruithne,

And even though I don't have the knowledge, I KNOW these places are marking things up for the obvious reasons, but ripping unsuspecting consumers off isn't right.

Whatever business you're in, if it's not a PC manufacturer or IT, you're in the wrong business :)

Thanks again

[dabsr]

Hey Mr. C, (and everyone)

What do you think about this config from Xi ;


Intel® Core®2 Duo E6600 OverClocked Silent Water Cooling @+-2.66GHz-1066FSB
4096KB L2 Cache Dual-Core VT EM64T-Req.EVGA MoBo

2048MB DDR2 800MHz PC2-6400 2x1024 Dual Rank Interleave

nVidia® GeForce 8800 GTS 320MB DDR3 PCIe XXX/Superclock Version SLI-Ready Dual Head 2xDVI-I Dual Link HDTV

20" VG2021M Viewsonic® Slim LCD 8ms. 1400x1050NR Speakers

250GB 7200RPM SATAII 300MB/s 16MB Cache 9ms

HD Ctrl. According To Motherboard and HD Type Selected

DVD+RW/DL/+R-R/CD-RW Double Media 4.7/8.5GB 18x w/Software & media

AC'97 Codec On-Board Sound

Network connection accordingly to motherboard selected

Logitech® Deluxe Black Windows Keyboard

Logitech® 2+ Wheel PS/2 Mouse Black Optical w/Mouse pad

Genuine Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional CD-ROM w/manuals/act.reg.** SP2

EVGA® Nvidia® nForce 680i SLI 3xPCIe 16x DDR2 800 to 1200-2x1Gb Ethernet-6xSATA3Gb-RAID 0/1/5-Firewire1394-8CH Digital Audio

600W OCZ GameXStream(tm) Quiet 12cm BB Fan PowerWhisper(tm) UL

[CromCruithne]

Uhhhh....I think I could probably buy a fairly reliable car for the price of that thing. It's certainly a sweet rig, but do you really need that much machine?

-Crom

[Ronrico19]

I know that many people are uncomfortable buying from eBay, but you can get some great whitebox systems for cheap.

Example:
Core 2 Duo 6700
4 x 1 gb PC6400 ram
GeForce 8800 GTX 768 mb (128 pixel pipelines)
300 gb Samsung 7200rpm hd
Sound Blaster Audigy 7.1
600W power supply (not sure if that's enough)
cool case

only $1,999+ shipping $49

[CromCruithne]

And you just proved why I'm personally not comfortable buying PCs or parts from eBay. The 8800 GTX has 128 Stream processors. While stream processors are indeed the replacement for pixel pipelines, they don't do so at a one to one ratio. The 8800 GTX is certainly a hoss of a card, and probably worth every penny you spend on it, but that's if you're either a gamer or doing nothing but rendering and animation. If you're the average CAD user, getting a 8800 GTX is like using a Ferrari to run down to the grocery store.

-Crom

[Ronrico19]

But it is going for the same price as the other set-ups. So why not get the Ferrari?

[CromCruithne]

That just means the other setups are over-priced. If you're not comfortable building your own, but have money to spend, I'd go to a site with a good reputation that specializes in workstations. If all you want is a powerful gaming rig, you might as well get a Dell XPS. If you are comfortable building your own, then you should do a fair amount a research and go for it.

dabsr - I just noticed something. If you went to Xi and are really willing to spend that much on a machine, you should get a workstation class graphics card instead of the 8800. A FireGL or Quadro will serve you much better in CAD work than anything else.

-Crom

[dabsr]

Hey Mr. C,

that quote IS from Xi. And I catually gave almsot the same, word-for-word categorized run down, organized from primary functions (AutoCAD 2D & 3D drawings) to lower priorty functions, as well as associated softwares I wil lbe loading ... and of course the restraints associated for my needs.

They came back with that configuration for $2,397.00

I went back and forth looking to change a couple of things here and there and because of my lack of knowledge in that dept., I couldn't do much ... realizing that he may have pieced together that quote because of my lack of marbles.

[CromCruithne]

I realize the quote is from Xi. What I'm saying is this:
If you're going to spend that kind of money for a CAD system, you should get a workstation class video card instead of a gaming card, which is what the 8800 is.

-Crom

[Ronrico19]

I don't think that budget allows for a workstation class card. The quadro fx 4600 is like $1,700 itself, whereas the 8800 GTX is only like $700.

[CromCruithne]

That FX 4600 is nothing anyone on this forum will ever need. If you read the thread about buying a card on eBay right now, you'll see all the comments about that particular card. A Low to mid end card will do everything you need. Also check some other places before paying that for a 8800. I can snag an eVGA 8800GTX for 550$ from newegg.com

-Crom

[dabsr]

Hey Mr. CromC,

I went back and forth, I changed a couple of things and the only change to my latest configfuration was what the rep at Xi suggested as a video card listed below. config = under $2k;

Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 2.40GHz 1066FSB 4096KB L2 Cache Dual-Core VT EM64T

2048MB DDR2 800MHz PC2-6400 2x1024 Dual Rank Interleave


(card I picked)
nVidia® Quadro FX 350 128MB DDR2 PCIe 1xDVI-I 1xVGA Dual Head

(card Xi recommended)
nVidia GeForce 8500 GT 256MB DDR3 PCIe XXX/Superclock Version SLI-Ready Dual Head 1xDVI-I 1xVGA HDTV


19" VG930M Viewsonic Ultra Slim LCD ClearMotif 8ms.1280x1024NR Speakers

250GB 7200RPM SATAII 300MB/s 16MB Cache 9ms

Optional 80GB 7200RPM SATAII 300MB/s 8MB Cache 9ms

HD Ctrl. According To Motherboard and HD Type Selected

DVD+RW/DL/+R-R/CD-RW Double Media 4.7/8.5GB 18x w/Software & media

USB 2.0 Flash Memory Drive 1GB + 1.44Floppy

AC'97 Codec On-Board Sound

Network connection accordingly to motherboard selected

Altec Lansing 2220 Black/Metallic 2 Piece Speaker System

Logitech Deluxe Black Windows Keyboard

Logitech 2+ Wheel PS/2 Mouse Black Optical w/Mouse pad

Genuine Microsoft Windows® XP Professional CD-ROM w/manuals/act.reg.** SP2

Asus P5B Deluxe Intel P965 (Broadwater C.S.) 2xPCIe 16x/4x DDR2 800 non ECC -1Gb Ethernet+ 6xSATA3Gb RAID 0/1/5-1394-AD1988B-8CH Hi-Def.audio. NO LINUX

600W OCZ GameXStream Quiet 12cm BB Fan PowerWhisper UL

Warranty w/Express Advance Parts Replacement, One Year on System, Mfg. on Monitor

Tower 2x12cm Quiet Fans-Front Grid-2x Front USB+1394

[xyzalvarez]

did you order that desktop? how you like it?
Im about the order a new one and i had the same questions like you...

BTW how you feel it ? did u use a migration software or now is a clean xp?

[dabsr]

After all of the info gathering, I stepped back a little on the video card (thanks Mr. CromC) and ordered it through Xi.

I've read that the components they use are mostly the current configs and their return policy and tech support is outstanding.

The machine should be delivered shortly ... I will let you know more as I get up and running.

[ReMark]

Here's what Xi has to say about the 8800:

<start quote>

GeForce™ 8800, AutoCAD, DX10 & O-GL

The new GeForce™ 8800 GTX/GTS Video Cards, with up 768MB of DDR3 VRAM, have been recently introduced and are available for sale with our MTower™ workstations. Most of you will wonder: why a “gamers” video card for CAD and workstation use? For years the use of a gamers card for CAD has been the poor man’s choice, cheap, but with sure low performance. But… the new 8800 series have a very special feature that justifies its adoption for CAD, even against the more popular (and way more expensive) Nvidia® Quadro™ counterparts: it supports Direct X10 3D standards via accelerated on-board hardware. Now the really interesting part: a subset of DX10 HW accelerated functions is overlapping some of the Open-GL 2.0 (historically only HW accelerated on the Quadro™ video cards) used by the Autodesk® family of products like AutoCAD, 3ds Max etc.. What is the result of this? Our @Xi® MTower™ workstations are breaking new CAD performance benchmark records using the 8800 GeForce instead of the more expensive Quadros. We are constantly researching to offer more speed and productivity for less money, and this is our latest achievement! Capitalizing our 20 years Workstation experience, we recently teamed up with XFX® (Leading Manufacturer of Nvidia GeForce video cards), to customize a XXX Special Edition 8800 series with extended HW assisted 3D CAD functions, for even performance on a broader spectrum of CAD packages.

<end quote>

I'll let you know how true these claims are some time in the future as I just got my new rig in today. It came configured with a nVidia GeForce 8800 GTX (not the lower end GTS) 768MB DDR3 PCIe video card. The IS department has it for the moment to set up all the network stuff, add MS Office and install the anti-virus software. My old rig had a nVidia Quadro 4 980-XGL w/128MB vidRAM onboard.

[dabsr]

hey ReMark,

After talking live to the sales staff, I upgraded to the 8800 GTS (still pricey for me but I think it'll be well worth it)

It'll be interesting to see how it performs....

[ReMark]

Addendum to my previous post.

If you want the technical details regarding the nVidia GeForce 8800 graphics processor check out the link below. Warning: when I say technical I mean Technical with a capitol "T". Also, the report is quite long.

See:

http://techreport.com/reviews/2006q4/geforce-8800/index.x?pg=1

[dabsr]

Thank you, but I'm good ...you're post was more than I could ever process.

Thanks

[ReMark]

dabsr:

I really wanted to stay with the Quadro series but those prices really go up steeply fast. I thought the GeForce 8800 would be worth trying out. I have to plan for a minimum of three years use (max five) on any work related computer so I went overboard on the vidRAM for the graphics card. We plan on doing more in-depth, detail oriented, 3D work down the road. Might as well be ready for it. Good luck with your system. This is the third Xi computer I've ordered. My home computers are all from IBuyPower.com. Have purchased three of theirs as well.

[CromCruithne]

Excellent info about the 8800 series ReMark. I'll be switching up my build then. Had planned on a late GeForce 7 series, to try to eek out all the power I could from the gamer sphere of vid cards, but I really wanted more info before I spent the bucks on an 8800.

-Crom

[ReMark]

Thanks Crom....

Between the three of us I think we now qualify as a test group.

[CromCruithne]

I'm looking at a the EVGA 320 MB 8800 right now. The 640 GTS is a possibility (provided I can talk my wife into it), but the 768 GTX is just out of my price range right now.

As builds are wont to do, mine has changed a bit. I should have a new job within two weeks, and plan on using my first check to build with the following:

Case: Thermaltake Tsunami
MoBo: ASUS M2N-SLi Deluxe
CPU: AMD 64 x 2 6000+
RAM: 2 x 1 GB Corsair XMS2 DDR2 800 (May double that)
PSU: Silverstone Decathalon 650W
VGA: EVGA 320 MB 8800
HDD: WD 320 GB SATA II Caviar
DVD: Samsung 18x SATA w/ Lightscribe

-Crom

[ReMark]

Well I went with:

Case:Xi MTower Aluminum Black - Tool Free
MoBo: Asus P5B Deluxe
CPU: Intel Core2 Duo E6700 2.66GHz 1066FSB 4096KB L2 Cache
RAM: 4096MB DDR2 800MHz PC2-6400 4x1024 Dual Rank Interleave
PSU: 700W OCZ GameXStream Quiet 12cm Ballbearing Fan PowerWhisper
VGA: nVidia GeForce 8800 GTX 768MB DDR3 PCIe
HDD: (don't laugh) Twin 73GB SCSI 10,000 RPM
DVD: LightScribe DVD+RW/DL+R-R Double Media 4.7/8.5GB 16x w/SW-Media
no monitor - still using a 21" Mitsubishi Diamond Pro 2040u

[CromCruithne]

Nice setup. Nothing to laugh about with a 10k RPM HDD. I thought very hard about getting a WD 74GB Raptor to run the OS on.

-Crom

[xyzalvarez]

hey guys...
i ordered an Xi pc and shipping was fast...less than 15 days...

i just got it yesterday..and seams im going to be a happy person with that...

now here comes my question:

what did u use for the migration software?...i read some reviews and almost everything has some flaws... right now im going to keep my XP with 04 CAD...

also XP comes with a migration option...but how good is it? ei: cookies, favorites, pen points, plotter / printers , sofware license, etc..will work the same? or do i need to install everything again?
how to do it the best way?

also lets say i have some spyware on my old pc.. when I'll transfer files...would the spyware/trojans or whatever bad cookie will be install in my new pc?

the reason is that like many ppl , i have several programs install, and some of them i lost the installation cd....and i dont want to loose any of those because this is what i use for work...

any advice will be appreciate.
thanks.

[ReMark]

I did not use migration software as it gave me the chance to clean out a lot of junk. I also was switching from Win2K to XP Pro. However, so I wouldn't lose everything, I pulled the hard drive from the old system and installed it as a backup in the new system. Already I've gone to the old drive to retrieve a handful of items but after a month has passed, if I haven't been back to retrieve anything else, I will wipe the drive clean.

Note: You can copy your .stb and .ctb files over to your new system via a CD or a thumb drive.

You have several programs installed that you no longer have the installation CDs for? Question: If your hard drive crashed and burned what would you have done? You're lucky that isn't the case.

[dabsr]

Well, Mr. Crom and ReMark (and all others),

Thanks for all the help. Sitting at home is my machine from Xi. The customer support was excellent, shipping was ... uneventful = no problems.

I don't have the same problems a few of you have, migrating some old software to the new ... this is a new machine in all aspects. Only some files; drawings mostly, will be taken from my old machine.

I read enough in blogs and magazines to convince me that I will not need to upgrade to Vista anytime soon, and for what I'm doing with my machine (AutoCAD and graphic design work and on-line classes primarily) if I'm smarter than I was with my first machine (which lasted me 8 years) ...I should have this long enough to learn some new softwares, make some money and possibly ....possibly start a new career.

My internet service will be hooked up Tuesday .... I'll keep you posted.

Thanks again