Building a PC from scratch to AutoCAD use.

[RLory]

Good afternoon to all CADTutor Team and subscribers.
First of all, I apologise my English since it’s not my first language so if I say something completely ridiculous that wasn't on purpose and I hope we can clarify any doubt.
I'm here to ask a few questions about hardware which I would be very grateful if you could clarify me about it, and I'm sure others like me can use this Thread to know what to do too.

I work mainly with 3D and unfortunately at home my personal computer is long gone in efficiency, which made think I definitely need a new one, but a proper one with proper hardware just for AutoCAD rendering for example, what I mean is (and more generally) can you clarify which parts are the best to acquire to build a proper PC.

I was thinking about:

Graphics: Nvidia GeForce 8600 GT 256 MB (or similar)
RAM: 3GB DDR2 800MHz
CPU: Intel Core2Duo E6850 3.00GHz
Motherboard: Nvidia nForce 680i SLI 3xPCIe

Either way, I must confess, has 3D fanatic I know I can go further with these parts.

Which ones would you advise me to acquire to have the best of AutoCAD 3D?

Thank you very much for you attention and patience to read this huge text.

Best Regards

R.Lory

[ReMark]

What OS will you be running? 32-bit or 64-bit?

[RLory]

OS will be 64-bit

[ReMark]

XP Pro or Vista? It makes a difference in memory utilization.

[RLory]

I confess I'm interested to go to Vista, but I've heard if I stay with XP Pro I can get the best of it... either way maybe it's just different opinions but I thinking on Vista tho.

[ReMark]

I would also recommend one of the nVidia Quadro graphics cards. Maybe the Fx570 512MB version.

[ReMark]

XP will only recognize a certain amount of RAM unless one tweaks the boot.ini file. This "fix" works well in a 3D environment. It's referred to as the /3GB switch. Vista will recognize more physical RAM without the need for tweaking.

[RLory]

I would also recommend one of the nVidia Quadro graphics cards. Maybe the Fx570 512MB version.

You're right it might be the best option Cheers...

[RLory]

XP will only recognize a certain amount of RAM unless one tweaks the boot.ini file. This "fix" works well in a 3D environment. It's referred to as the /3GB switch. Vista will recognize more physical RAM without the need for tweaking.

What happens with Vista not only because if it's potential to easy things a bit but it worries me in the amount of RAM Vista uses, and I'm afraid that will clash with detailing and rendering...
Ok, it's one of the possibilities and unfortunately one of the "usual" possibilities, but XP Pro besides feeling more comfortable with it I do realise sometimes it struggles a lot...

So, your advising me go to Vista or I'm completely wrong? lol

[ReMark]

You're straddling the fence. Pick one.

I'm partial to XP Pro but there are other forum members who run Vista and seem very happy with it for the most part although the majority of complaints about the OS tend to center around "slowness" compared to XP.

[ReMark]

What do you have in mind for the hard drive(s)?

[MaxwellEdison]

I'd go with Vista, on a machine configured for 3d modeling and rendering you shouldn't have too much of a problem. The majority of Vista's problems have been addressed in service packs, and if you understand how to slim it down in msconfig it can still perform well. I think you are going to see a general move in the industry to Windows 7 when it comes out 4Q-2009 or 1Q-2010, and the upgrade from Vista should be relatively hassle-free, unlike the move from XP.

I agree with tin-head about the Quadro gfx card, they're specced for the 3D environment. I'd probably go somewhere in the 4-8GB range for system memory. DDR3 if the budget allows, and of course the motherboard must be compatable.

[ReMark]

Tin-head? Tin-head??

I'll have you know Osmium is part of my metallurgical makeup Mr. Balsa-head.

[manhattan]

You might want to think about the upper limit of what you're willing to spend before speccing up a machine. Sadly a reasonable good 3D CAD machine is gonna cost you way more than the one you have listed. Remember budgets can keep going up & up, somewhere you need to set a limit.

As previously stated you would be much better off with a quadro gfx card but remember this will cost you much more than the an 8800 gt. Again your ram is not only quite an outdated bus-speed but also 3gb aint an awful lot. If i was buying a processor in that price range id be tempted to opt for the q6600 quad core instead. very stable for overclocking. Lastly the chipset on that motherboard is a bit outdated, 750i's are commonplace now

Sorry i dont mean to throw a spanner in the works. just remember, the better machine you opt for the longer you will be satisfied with it

[ReMark]

How much of your well earned pounds Sterling do we have to spend?

[lulumara]

Good afternoon to all CADTutor Team and subscribers.
First of all, I apologise my English since it’s not my first language so if I say something completely ridiculous that wasn't on purpose and I hope we can clarify any doubt.
I'm here to ask a few questions about hardware which I would be very grateful if you could clarify me about it, and I'm sure others like me can use this Thread to know what to do too.

I work mainly with 3D and unfortunately at home my personal computer is long gone in efficiency, which made think I definitely need a new one, but a proper one with proper hardware just for AutoCAD rendering for example, what I mean is (and more generally) can you clarify which parts are the best to acquire to build a proper PC.

I was thinking about:

Graphics: Nvidia GeForce 8600 GT 256 MB (or similar)
RAM: 3GB DDR2 800MHz
CPU: Intel Core2Duo E6850 3.00GHz
Motherboard: Nvidia nForce 680i SLI 3xPCIe

Either way, I must confess, has 3D fanatic I know I can go further with these parts.

Which ones would you advise me to acquire to have the best of AutoCAD 3D?

Thank you very much for you attention and patience to read this huge text.

Best Regards

R.Lory




Hi, how much you are willing to spend , you can look on Newegg.com where there's lot of choices. Go cpu in Quad core Q660 or 8200 intel, Gigabyte or Asus motherboard, with 8Gb ram to make it safe for rendering, ATI radeon 9800gt 512Mb or 1Gb,it's up to you on Hard drive (500 to 1Tb). And check it up Computer Forum where they help configure your chosen specification if it is compatible to all you have gather parts.Good luck in building it are you building it? Computer forum can help you in it.

[RLory]

You're straddling the fence. Pick one.

I'm partial to XP Pro but there are other forum members who run Vista and seem very happy with it for the most part although the majority of complaints about the OS tend to center around "slowness" compared to XP.

I that case I'll stay with XP Pro.

[RLory]

What do you have in mind for the hard drive(s)?

500Gb Seagate RAID per example but I'm still looking for the best option, besides being a good this like I said before I know I wont get the best of AutoCAD as I want from it...

[RLory]

I'd go with Vista, on a machine configured for 3d modeling and rendering you shouldn't have too much of a problem. The majority of Vista's problems have been addressed in service packs, and if you understand how to slim it down in msconfig it can still perform well. I think you are going to see a general move in the industry to Windows 7 when it comes out 4Q-2009 or 1Q-2010, and the upgrade from Vista should be relatively hassle-free, unlike the move from XP.

I agree with tin-head about the Quadro gfx card, they're specced for the 3D environment. I'd probably go somewhere in the 4-8GB range for system memory. DDR3 if the budget allows, and of course the motherboard must be compatable.

Cheers, you right about the DDR3 I confess tho that I can't afford it for now, but its in my plans to future.

[RLory]

Tin-head? Tin-head??

I'll have you know Osmium is part of my metallurgical makeup Mr. Balsa-head.

LOL eheheheh
You two made laugh now...LOL

[RLory]

You might want to think about the upper limit of what you're willing to spend before speccing up a machine. Sadly a reasonable good 3D CAD machine is gonna cost you way more than the one you have listed. Remember budgets can keep going up & up, somewhere you need to set a limit.

As previously stated you would be much better off with a quadro gfx card but remember this will cost you much more than the an 8800 gt. Again your ram is not only quite an outdated bus-speed but also 3gb aint an awful lot. If i was buying a processor in that price range id be tempted to opt for the q6600 quad core instead. very stable for overclocking. Lastly the chipset on that motherboard is a bit outdated, 750i's are commonplace now

Sorry i dont mean to throw a spanner in the works. just remember, the better machine you opt for the longer you will be satisfied with it

You're right about the budget... either way I know if can't have a proper one now sooner or later I'll need to aquire other one... and I don't want to think about it at least in the following 2 years.

[RLory]

How much of your well earned pounds Sterling do we have to spend?

Between 750 pounds to 1500 pounds...

[RLory]

Hi, how much you are willing to spend , you can look on Newegg.com where there's lot of choices. Go cpu in Quad core Q660 or 8200 intel, Gigabyte or Asus motherboard, with 8Gb ram to make it safe for rendering, ATI radeon 9800gt 512Mb or 1Gb,it's up to you on Hard drive (500 to 1Tb). And check it up Computer Forum where they help configure your chosen specification if it is compatible to all you have gather parts.Good luck in building it are you building it? Computer forum can help you in it.

Cheers mate.
Yes I'm building it. Every computer I had I always built it from scratch, imagine my Father entering a room and seeing me with 9 years old desmanteling a 486 with windows 3.1... No he didn't killed me LOL but I fixed RAM LOL

Newegg.com looks quite an alright store... cheers by that mate.

[MaxwellEdison]

MWave.com is another good retailer for computer components, they've stolen some of Newegg's thunder on customer service and returns policy as well. I'd look in to getting one of their pre-tested motherboard packages. They test the RAM and ensure everything is working in compliance so you can install it with the littlest hassle possible. I'd also look into a tower with a larger side cooling fan (80mm at least, 120mm or better preferred) and a robust power supply.

[manhattan]

I'd also look into a tower with a larger side cooling fan (80mm at least, 120mm or better preferred) and a robust power supply.

eeeek! in my experience cases with side mounted fans are terribly cheap and noisy, maybe this is just a mis-conception & they've come a long way in recent years. Might i say my Antek P182 case is lovely, sturdy and very well sound insulated

[RLory]

MWave.com is another good retailer for computer components, they've stolen some of Newegg's thunder on customer service and returns policy as well. I'd look in to getting one of their pre-tested motherboard packages. They test the RAM and ensure everything is working in compliance so you can install it with the littlest hassle possible. I'd also look into a tower with a larger side cooling fan (80mm at least, 120mm or better preferred) and a robust power supply.

Cheers mate ;)

[RLory]

eeeek! in my experience cases with side mounted fans are terribly cheap and noisy, maybe this is just a mis-conception & they've come a long way in recent years. Might i say my Antek P182 case is lovely, sturdy and very well sound insulated

After reading the following details I confess you convinced me.

"Special Features:
• Attractive gun metal black finish
• Dual chambers structure: The power supply (not included) is located in the lower chamber to isolate heat from the system and lower system noise
• Special three-layer side panel (aluminum, plastic, aluminum) dampens system-generated noise, making this one of the quietest cases available
• Material: 0.8mm cold rolled steel for durability through the majority of chassis, 1.0mm cold rolled steel around the 4x HDD area.
• 11 Drive Bays
- External 4 x 5.25"; 1 x 3.5"
- Internal 6 x 3.5" for HDD
• 7 Expansion Slots
• Cooling System:
- 1 rear 120mm TriCool Fan with 3-speed switch control (standard)
- 1 top 120mmTriCool Fan (standard)
- 1 lower chamber 120mm TriCool Fan (standard)
- 1 front 120mm fan (optional)
- 1 middle 120mm fan (optional) to cool the VGA
• External fan control on the rear panel for the top and rear fans in the upper chamber
• Motherboard: up to Standard ATX (12" x 9.6")
• Double hinge front door designed to open up to 270º
• Rubber grommeted ports on the rear for liquid-cooling tubes allow you to mount external liquid-cooling hardware
• Front-mounted ports provide convenient connections:
- 2 x USB 2.0
- 1 x IEEE 1394 (FireWire®, i.Link®)
- Audio In/Out (HAD & AC'97)
• Cable organizers behind motherboard tray minimize cable clutter
• Silicone grommets in the hard drive cages to absorb vibrations and reduce noise
• Built in washable air-filter
• Case Dimensions: 52cm (H) x 21cm (W) x 51cm (D) / 21.3" (H) x 8.1" (W) x 19.9" (D)"

Found it here: http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://benchmarkreviews.com/images/reviews/cases/Antec%2520P182/p182-01.jpg&imgrefurl=http://benchmarkreviews.com/index.php%3Foption%3Dcom_content%26task%3Dview%26i d%3D35%26Itemid%3D99999999&usg=__dcD5NE_LvrdWyXi0EWrfQR7mvWk=&h=588&w=459&sz=69&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=a2nbn44U1KjrSM:&tbnh=135&tbnw=105&prev=/images%3Fq%3DAntec%2BP182%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa% 3DX

[RLory]

Resuming all this:

OS: 64-Bit XP Pro
Graphics Card: nVidia Quadro Fx570 512MB
RAM: 8 GB DDR2 800MHz PC2-6400
Motherboard: Nvidia nForce 680i SLI 3xPCIe
Case: Antek P182

and think it will be it...
I still have the impression something is missing tho. LOL

Cheers for all your help and advices, let's see if I can build it and have it for 2 years without needing upgrade.

Once more cheers for everything.

[ReMark]

What is missing is a good, reliable power supply that can run everything and have some wattage to spare. What are you thinking in terms of wattage?

[RLory]

What is missing is a good, reliable power supply that can run everything and have some wattage to spare. What are you thinking in terms of wattage?

I'm thinking about :

PC Power & Cooling Turbo-Cool 1KW-SR Power supply

Like I said before, I don't want to upgrade my PC for at least two more years... 8)

[ReMark]

Judging by the specs I see no reason why you could not get three solid years out of the computer.

[RLory]

Judging by the specs I see no reason why you could not get three solid years out of the computer.

Cheers for all your help ReMark.

Now it's DiY time :D

Once more cheers for everyone help.

[ReMark]

Your entirely welcomed RLory. When you're finished buidling your mean machine maybe you can post some pics? I expect to see flames shooting out the back since it will be one smokin' 'puter!:lol:

[RLory]

Your entirely welcomed RLory. When you're finished buidling your mean machine maybe you can post some pics? I expect to see flames shooting out the back since it will be one smokin' 'puter!:lol:

LOLOLOLOLOLOL
This it will take at least a couple of months, not only because of the economical effect (my pocket) but too about timing. Since has a CAD Technician I'm in a new adventure of taking a degree on Structural Engineering this means this Super-BlackStar computer (LOL) will take some time to be built...
About the flames it's a good idea, but I confess I have a favourite taste for StarWars, might put some Jedi-lasers on it LOLOLOLOL kidding... but do have something in mind... I'm designing a BlackStar Computer (just the box), like several friends of mine say: it's not very practical, but I confess the drawing is almost done the problem will be finding round parts LOLOLO and if you think too that its not very practical well its true, but imagine a big black ball at your place... but well... some friends of mine call me crazy and mad, but for me it's just... creative...

So has you can see there loads of things I have to do/need to do/need to have... step-by-step things will get there...

Cheers for you help mate...

[kevinp]

Ive been building computers for years and have alot of experience when it comes to this type of input. I would recommend the following:

Case: Antec P182
Pros: Absolutely rock solid case, very quiet, alot of features, rubber screws for silencing hard drives, stock fans can put out a decent amount of air.
Cons: The PSU fan is in the way 99% of the time and takes a little while to get out. Case is also pretty heavy compared to aluminum (stainless steel case with acoustical padding).
CPU: Q6600 or Q8200
Why: Either is a great processor, and theres no reason not to get a quad core now. The q6600 is a better overclocker, so for the same price you can get potentially more performance out of it. If not overclocking, I would go with the q8200, or splurge for a more expensive Q9550 if you have the extra cash. Spend what your budget will allow.
Motherboard: Gigabyte EP45-DS3L
Pros: Super cheap with solid state capacitors make it a reliable motherboard. Has decent overclocking features, but not great. Dual 1gbps LAN, supports DDR2 1200.

Cons: No software RAID (kinda useless anyhow), only 1 pci-e slot (no multiple videocards), does not support new core i7 CPUs.

Overall a great motherboard that will be great for 90% of people. If you need to have crossfire or SLI capabilities, look elsewhere.

RAM: Anything cheap thats DDR2 1200mhz and lower. Recommended brands are Kingston, Crucial, OZC, GSkill, Corsair, and Geil. Keep in mind there is not much of a performance difference between 800mhz and 1066mhz, but if its a cheap upgrade, you might as well go for it. Would recommend 4GB-8GB of RAM.

Hard Drive: Western Digital or a Samsung Spinpoint drive.
Why: Seagate had major problems with drives recently and should be avoided until those issues clear up. Western Digital has always been a top brand, and samsung drives are just as reliable. I would get 1TB at the most, mainly because hard drive space is so cheap now.

Video Card:

Heres where it gets tricky. If you have the cash, workstation cards are the way to go. The thing is, the only difference between workstation and consumer line is the drivers. It is possible to soft-mod a consumer card like an ATi hd3850 ($80USD) to a FireGL v7700 ($700USD). If you are strapped for cash, get a higher end consumer card, as $300 will get you a very nice consumer card with a nice possible soft-mod, while a $300 workstation card will be at least 2-3 years old.

Power supply:
Heres another tricky thing...the 1000W you would like to get is WAY overkill. A PC power and Cooling 610W would be fine for virtually any computer, even a 450W would do. I would stick to reliable brand such as Seasonic, Silverstone, PC Power and Cooling, and Corsair. All of their models are top-quality.

DVD/CD Drive: I almost always buy Samsung drives. Extremely reliable.

Keyboard/Mouse: Your choice, buy what you think is comfortable.

Monitor: Cheapest, biggest monitor you can afford, maybe even dual monitors. Since its a CAD machine, color accuracy and angles aren't important, so sacrifice those attributes for a larger size.

[dumfatnhappy]

I am trying to get my machine up-to-snuff much like what you want. I will warn you first that Vista 64 is memory hungry, I would even try it without 8 gigs of RAM for starters.... then know that Vista home and Home Premium only recognizes a max of 8 gig (RAM), Vista Business/Ultimate (64) can see upwards of 128 gig (and swaps to the HD). Acad 2008 can not use a 64 bit OS (I don't think) Also, I had a decision to make about my video card, the more I shopped the more I wanted..... and settled for an Invidea Quadro FX 4600. Here's the kicker, I threw the dice and found one "gently used" on Ebay for $550 minus cables/disk. Well it paid off (whew!) as I got the cables at a locally for $5 and the drivers from autodesk.

I'm cookin with sterno now ! 8)

Good Luck to you!

[RLory]

Cheers KevinP...
Since I do have time to build it, that gives me the chance to see if there's any new upgrades in piece of hardware I want to buy... plus I'm waiting too for the details from AutoCAD 2010 and Revit 2010...
Cheers for your help mate.

[RLory]

I am trying to get my machine up-to-snuff much like what you want. I will warn you first that Vista 64 is memory hungry, I would even try it without 8 gigs of RAM for starters.... then know that Vista home and Home Premium only recognizes a max of 8 gig (RAM), Vista Business/Ultimate (64) can see upwards of 128 gig (and swaps to the HD). Acad 2008 can not use a 64 bit OS (I don't think) Also, I had a decision to make about my video card, the more I shopped the more I wanted..... and settled for an Invidea Quadro FX 4600. Here's the kicker, I threw the dice and found one "gently used" on Ebay for $550 minus cables/disk. Well it paid off (whew!) as I got the cables at a locally for $5 and the drivers from autodesk.

I'm cookin with sterno now ! 8)

Good Luck to you!

I think one of my biggest issues is actually buy on Ebay... don't know why or is just because I love what I do and I want everything to be perfect that I can't trust Ebay... I just can't... don't ask me why and don't take me wrong or offended for me saying this but I feel the relalibility of Ebay is 0 (zero).... I'm already looking for parts in qualified websites and you might be right, they might be quite expensive because it comes from a qualified supplier but I can count with reliability plus for every part by law (related to computer hardware) I have 1 to 2 years garantee...
Either way, cheers for your comment mate not only about the tip of the Vista (64) but cheers too for the other subjects...

[kevinp]

try
www.overclockers (http://www.%3Cb%3Eoverclockers%3C/b%3E).co.uk/
For buying computer parts

[Viper04]

I would stay away from Quadro's & FirePros unless your budget is like $10,000US.

We have Quadro 1500 cards and the new comp I just built with a gaming card kills them hands down. I would get Higher end "gaming" card and hack the BIOS to make it either a Quadro or FireGL if you need that but leaving it works really well anyways. The only difference between Quadro/GeForce is drivers. Typically the hardware in the Quadro/FirePro are older unless you spend a few G's on the card which will be out dated it a few months.

8GB RAM would be ok, but I would get an Intel i7 with 12 or 16GB RAM which will make a huge difference.

OS Hard Drive is very important. You can spend a crap load on everything else and get a cheap HDD and everything will be slow. Get a WD Raptor 15,000RPM or WD VeliciRaptor if wanting a SATA drive or if you have the cash get a SSD drive.

just my 2 cents

[ReMark]

"The only difference between Quadro/GeForce is drivers."

Are you sure?

What two cards are you actually comparing? Names would help.

[Viper04]

ATI’s Radeon X1800 to FireGL V7350, FireGL V7700 is a Radeon HD 3870, GeForce 9800 to Quadro FX 5800 just to name a few. Google it and you'd be surprised with the results. The reason the cost so much more for the Profession cards is due to the extensive testing of the drivers with apps like 3DS Max, Maya ect.

I find gaming cards more that adequate enough for what I need to use them for (3D Rendering, Animation, Photoshop). Unless you pay for the premium stuff and have no budget and can put down $5000 for the new Quadro cards I would put my money else where in the machine and V-Card is mainily for Viewports and working with 3D rather than the actuall rendering part.

[ReMark]

Then you're saying there is no physical differences between the cards as for example between the amount and type of vidRAM?

What about differences between processor cores, memory interface and memory bandwidth?

[manhattan]

im sure this cant be true. yes im well aware you can soft-mod a gaming card to its firefl / quadro counterpart but surely there must be some physical difference. I dont pretend to know all that much about workstation cards but my boss is always going on about dedicated pipelines for specific software on such cards.

oh and btw at home i run 2 x bfg tech 8800gtx in sli (a little dated now i know) and at work i have a quadro fx 570. both the machines are similarly specced and the work machine copes LOTS better with large cad drawings & models.

as for the huge costs of workstation cards, check out the second hand market. you would not believe how much they drop in price

[f700es]

I also don't agree with this. I too use a quadro at work and it light years faster at CAD and 3D than my geforce 6600gt. But the GF plays games better ;)

[StykFacE]

Hardware specs are generally the same, its the extensions that drive it. Games use DirectX. AutoCAD uses OpenGL (the full app, not the MiniGL extensions). The Quadros are equipped with the full OpenGL application extensions that utilize the full *.HDI driver. "Gaming" cards do not take advantage of this. because most games are programmed for DirectX, which is Microsoft's hardware app extensions.

I went from a GeForce 7300GT to a QuadroFX 1700, and a WORRRRLD of difference in all my 3D drawings in AutoCAD & Revit. Never will I go back to a gaming card, softmodded or not.

[StykFacE]

In fact, I went and did a comparison between the two cards. My co-worker got my old 7300GT as a handme down, so I ran a utility to check on each of the card's capabilities. My FX1700 has 26 more OpenGL extensions than the 7300GT, not to mention the maximum texture size is 8192x8192 where as the 7300GT is only 4096x4096. Both are running the most up to date version of OpenGL.

The extensions included some light and vertex shaders, as well as some depth shaders and fog renderers, texture capabilities, and a few more frame buffers. So there's definitely an inherit difference between a gaming card and a workstation.

[Viper04]

I went from a GeForce 7300GT to a QuadroFX 1700, and a WORRRRLD of difference in all my 3D drawings in AutoCAD & Revit. Never will I go back to a gaming card, softmodded or not.

No kidding u see a difference! 7300GT is not even a decent gaming card its a low-end card u get with Dell comps. Compare The Quadro FX 1700 to a ATI 4870 / 2GB Ram for less money then u'll see you wasted your money on the 1700.


Then you're saying there is no physical differences between the cards as for example between the amount and type of vidRAM?

What about differences between processor cores, memory interface and memory bandwidth?

Yes NO PHYSICAL difference between COMPARABLE ie Same chip cards. That's why when you softmode them all you do is change the BIOS on the chip which enables you do install the DRIVERS which is the single most important factor.

The ONLY time I would buy a Pro Card is if my application ONLY using OpenGL ie. Solid Works. The majority of pro apps, ie AutoDesk Apps all have DirectX which performs better than OpenGL in majority of cases.

I have done soft modding to see if this was true and yes it is. I have completed benchmarking tests in 3DS Max, AutoCAD & Maya.

I don't bother with soft modding much any more as all my machines run on Vista 64 (soon to be Windows 7 64bit) using DirectX and the latest "gaming" drivers and I have never had problems with my assemblies (commercial buildings, residential stuff).


What are the specs of your guys machines that run Quadros?
CPU, RAM (speed, latency & Amount), Motherboard, Hard drive, OS

[Viper04]

In fact, I went and did a comparison between the two cards. My co-worker got my old 7300GT as a handme down, so I ran a utility to check on each of the card's capabilities. My FX1700 has 26 more OpenGL extensions than the 7300GT, not to mention the maximum texture size is 8192x8192 where as the 7300GT is only 4096x4096. Both are running the most up to date version of OpenGL.

You are comparing two completely different technologies here. Try comparing it to a card at least in the same chip family as the 1700 ie G92 or 8 series.. so something like a GeForce 9800GTX. Its probably comparable to a $140 8800GT card.

[Viper04]

AutoCAD uses OpenGL (the full app, not the MiniGL extensions).

um are you still using AutoCAD realease 12?? Almost all AutoDesk projects use OpenGL (which is old and crappy and doesn't work very well with Vista) and DirectX. DirectX runs twice as fast on the majority of benchs I have done with my Quadro 1500 card. No put in a decent "gaming" card and it kills the Quadro cards.


From what I gather this soft modding thing is starting to change in regards to the upper ULTRA High-End Quadro / FirePro as they are making changes they keep their huge business in pro cards because most people using Autodesk apps and don't build computer will think hey, it says I need this so I guess I'll expenses it.

If you are a business owner and understand how computers function and can build/overclock components and don't have a HUGE expenses account you'll understand then.


My day job has all Quadro 1500 in their machines. My side job has high end gaming cards. As soon as I start Orbiting on my Quadro 1500 cards in my office it goes straight to Wireframe unless I disable the Adaptive which makes it crash... At home it runs smooth as butter.

[StykFacE]

You are comparing two completely different technologies here. Try comparing it to a card at least in the same chip family as the 1700 ie G92 or 8 series.. so something like a GeForce 9800GTX. Its probably comparable to a $140 8800GT card.
I have a 4850 at home, doesn't run as good as my Quadro FX 1700 at work. We've seen your type on these boards before... you're a fanboy of gaming cards that can prove themselves worthy, and thats fine and dandy. But there are also other things to consider... Not just FPS when 3D Orbiting around an object, but most gaming cards have a nasty refreshing effect of the 3D crosshairs in AutoCAD. Also, I've experienced first hand what a gaming card does in Revit.... OMFG don't even get me started on that subject. A gaming card wouldn't even allow selection properties of certin editable objects in revit, but alas, soon as we upgraded to a workstation level graphics card ALL REVIT PROBLEMS WENT AWAY. Period.

In my office, I have experienced first hand the differences between a gaming card and a workstation between all my guys here who run all our CAD apps. I see the certified hardware list on Autodesk's website and I see that gaming cards are coming into the mix. Fine... sweet... awesome. You can come in here and rant and rave all you want about how much better a gaming card is. But I am not convinced by your persuasions at all. Workstations just work. No tampering needed. No I.T. department being called because of an update in AutoCAD knocked out a once certified *.HDI driver down to a non-standard, under performing graphics accelerator. Not in this office.

But glad to know that you can get good performance out of a gaming card, at an expense of about 120+ Watts vs my FX1700 that doesn't get over 45 Watts under full load. :)

[Viper04]

We've seen your type on these boards before... you're a fanboy of gaming cards that can prove themselves worthy, and thats fine and dandy. But there are also other things to consider... Not just FPS when 3D Orbiting around an object, but most gaming cards have a nasty refreshing effect of the 3D crosshairs in AutoCAD. Also, I've experienced first hand what a gaming card does in Revit.... OMFG don't even get me started on that subject. A gaming card wouldn't even allow selection properties of certin editable objects in revit, but alas, soon as we upgraded to a workstation level graphics card ALL REVIT PROBLEMS WENT AWAY. Period.

I'm not a "fanboy" I have just come to the conclusion for the apps I run, AutoCAD, 3DS Max, Maya that I can use gaming cards and save my company some money they can spend on something like ummm new CPU, more RAM ect.

I don't run Revit and I believe its an OpenGL program like Solid Works so of course you had proboblems, I wouldn't even touch a gaming card for something like that. Switch over to Max, Maya and AutoCAD well thats a different story as DirectX performs well in them.

Are you running Vista at your office or still XP?

For the saving of $2500 for a higher end Quadro I can handle some little imperfections with cross hairs (which I might add have problems in AutoCAD on my Quadro 1500 and screen artifacts).


My point is but the hardware that you require to do your job at a specific level with a reasonable budget in mind that works best for the software you use. You don't need a Quadro to run AutoCAD nor should you, unless you need to keep up the "game face" so your boses don't realize your wasting money.


Back to the opp, he is wanting something for AutoCAD NOT Revit and with the mid to lower end machine he is running don't bother with a Quadro... put it towards a better CPU and 8+GB of high performance RAM.

[Viper04]

Resuming all this:

OS: 64-Bit XP Pro
Graphics Card: nVidia Quadro Fx570 512MB
RAM: 8 GB DDR2 800MHz PC2-6400
Motherboard: Nvidia nForce 680i SLI 3xPCIe
Case: Antek P182


We use the P182 cases and I don't recommend them at all. Yes they are nice for the noise but freakin heavy. Also opening and closing the Front door to turn the machine on/off becomes a pain and my drafters end up leaving it open (which makes it louder and allowes more dust in which is huge for use becasue we are a precast concrete plant so I have to clean out the comps every month or so becasue of the concrete dust.)

Also make sure your power supply will fit inside. We had to remove the FAN housing to allow for a large power supplies to fit inside and its still pretty cramp and not much air flow around the hard drives to keep them cool.

[StykFacE]

I'm not a "fanboy" I have just come to the conclusion for the apps I run, AutoCAD, 3DS Max, Maya that I can use gaming cards and save my company some money they can spend on something like ummm new CPU, more RAM ect.

I don't run Revit and I believe its an OpenGL program like Solid Works so of course you had proboblems, I wouldn't even touch a gaming card for something like that. Switch over to Max, Maya and AutoCAD well thats a different story as DirectX performs well in them.

Are you running Vista at your office or still XP?

For the saving of $2500 for a higher end Quadro I can handle some little imperfections with cross hairs (which I might add have problems in AutoCAD on my Quadro 1500 and screen artifacts).


My point is but the hardware that you require to do your job at a specific level with a reasonable budget in mind that works best for the software you use. You don't need a Quadro to run AutoCAD nor should you, unless you need to keep up the "game face" so your boses don't realize your wasting money.


Back to the opp, he is wanting something for AutoCAD NOT Revit and with the mid to lower end machine he is running don't bother with a Quadro... put it towards a better CPU and 8+GB of high performance RAM.

What's all this $2,500 business? the same videocard I have is $434 on Newegg. And trust me... this guy might want something for AutoCAD only, but I'll be you bottom dollar that he doesn't want to spend the time tinkering with a gaming card to softmod it into a "workstation" level graphics card. That is for experienced users who are tech buffs, like yourself. And if a company can't fork out less than $500 for a graphics card, well then.... maybe they need to budget more and get with the program.

And my comment about the crosshairs, that was one gripe of many. And when a 3D crosshair "multiplys and sticks" onto the screen every other frame, you cannot even see what you are drawing, much less the rest of the annoyances that come with a gaming card. That's right.... GAMING CARD. Not CAD WORKSTATION. Hey you can tow a ten thousand pound trailer with a "modded" V6 truck, but wouldn't you rather have a Powerstroke V8 that's built for hauling loads? I hope you're getting my drift here.....

I'm not saying what you are offering isn't true at all. I'm just saying you are not giving credit for a workstation graphics card. They do work much better than a gaming card, and I have seen it first hand. Workstations don't need any tinkering, and you can go budget for a good one.

[Viper04]

One last thing is for AutoCAD my 8800GT isn't softmodded and it runs better than my Quadro 1500 but maybe that's just me. Just suggestion to the OP that there is alternatives that will do just fine for AutoCAD in 3D. I mainly use mine for Arch AutoCAD but yea.... just be happy we the choices you make and everything will be fine.

done and done.

[f700es]

Well I don't spec machines to run what I am using now I spec them in hopes of being on track for at least 3 updates on my software. Seeing the jump from AutoCAD 2008 to 2009 one can only guess as to what the next step will be.


I have a 4850 at home, doesn't run as good as my Quadro FX 1700 at work. We've seen your type on these boards before... you're a fanboy of gaming cards that can prove themselves worthy, and thats fine and dandy. But there are also other things to consider... Not just FPS when 3D Orbiting around an object, but most gaming cards have a nasty refreshing effect of the 3D crosshairs in AutoCAD. Also, I've experienced first hand what a gaming card does in Revit.... OMFG don't even get me started on that subject. A gaming card wouldn't even allow selection properties of certin editable objects in revit, but alas, soon as we upgraded to a workstation level graphics card ALL REVIT PROBLEMS WENT AWAY. Period.

In my office, I have experienced first hand the differences between a gaming card and a workstation between all my guys here who run all our CAD apps. I see the certified hardware list on Autodesk's website and I see that gaming cards are coming into the mix. Fine... sweet... awesome. You can come in here and rant and rave all you want about how much better a gaming card is. But I am not convinced by your persuasions at all. Workstations just work. No tampering needed. No I.T. department being called because of an update in AutoCAD knocked out a once certified *.HDI driver down to a non-standard, under performing graphics accelerator. Not in this office.

But glad to know that you can get good performance out of a gaming card, at an expense of about 120+ Watts vs my FX1700 that doesn't get over 45 Watts under full load. :)

[f700es]

You are comparing two completely different technologies here. Try comparing it to a card at least in the same chip family as the 1700 ie G92 or 8 series.. so something like a GeForce 9800GTX. Its probably comparable to a $140 8800GT card.

Just to be far you are also not comparing apples to apples yourself :wink:

Your 8800GT has a G92 GPU while the FX1500 has a G71 GPU. The 8800 is also a year newer too. It also has PCIe 2.0 interface so it will have a faster interface with the system. IIRC 2.0 is twice as fast as 1.0 (500mb/s to 250 mb/s). Yeah I looked it up :oops:

I have wanted to softmod my GF at home but I am too chicken!

[Viper04]

Your 8800GT has a G92 GPU while the FX1500 has a G71 GPU. The 8800 is also a year newer too. It also has PCIe 2.0 interface so it will have a faster interface with the system. IIRC 2.0 is twice as fast as 1.0 (500mb/s to 250 mb/s). Yeah I looked it up :oops:

You are right about that! Because Pro cards typically come out after gaming cards and if you buy something decent, the way the trend is the gaming card will typically always be a version/tech ahead of the pro card due to the extensive testing on pro cards. I had nothing else to compare the 1500 to but I figured at the price point comparison at the time of purchase it was accurate but you are right they are in different families.

[StykFacE]

You are right about that! Because Pro cards typically come out after gaming cards and if you buy something decent, the way the trend is the gaming card will typically always be a version/tech ahead of the pro card due to the extensive testing on pro cards.....
I would argue that the gaming industry is simply more marketable. If I was CEO of Nvidia/ATI then I would put more engineering resources into the industry that brought in more revenue, and had a higher demand. :)

[Jack_O'neill]

Wow...after reading all this, I'm feeling left behind again. I just did a video card upgrade (Geforce 8400gs) to this computer and was pleased with the results in that it was a considerable improvement over what I had. After reading all this, I wonder what I'm missing. This machine is two years old and was a bargain purchase at Best Buy then. Even at that, it ran faster and with less problems than the machine I had at my previous employer. They did mostly 2d stuff, but if I did have to do any 3d stuff I'd wait till I got home to do it here simply because this one would out perform what we had there (leased Lenovos).

May have to see what else I can do to it now.

[f700es]

You are right about that! Because Pro cards typically come out after gaming cards and if you buy something decent, the way the trend is the gaming card will typically always be a version/tech ahead of the pro card due to the extensive testing on pro cards. I had nothing else to compare the 1500 to but I figured at the price point comparison at the time of purchase it was accurate but you are right they are in different families.

Oh yeah, just picking one you pretty much :wink: My two that I compare aren't similar either but it is all I have to compare with as well.

[f700es]

Well I bleed nVidia green when I get cut so I am biased but with their cards the 1st number is the series and the 2nd shows it level (or something). Always stay with the 2nd number up at 6 or above while 8 is nice IMHO.
6800
8800
9800 and so on

Looks like the new 200 series are the new cards on the block though.

Sweet......:geek:

http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp%3FProductCode=10009933%26prodlis t=at




Wow...after reading all this, I'm feeling left behind again. I just did a video card upgrade (Geforce 8400gs) to this computer and was pleased with the results in that it was a considerable improvement over what I had. After reading all this, I wonder what I'm missing. This machine is two years old and was a bargain purchase at Best Buy then. Even at that, it ran faster and with less problems than the machine I had at my previous employer. They did mostly 2d stuff, but if I did have to do any 3d stuff I'd wait till I got home to do it here simply because this one would out perform what we had there (leased Lenovos).

May have to see what else I can do to it now.

[StykFacE]

Well I bleed nVidia green when I get cut so I am biased but with their cards the 1st number is the series and the 2nd shows it level (or something). Always stay with the 2nd number up at 6 or above while 8 is nice IMHO.
6800
8800
9800 and so on

Looks like the new 200 series are the new cards on the block though.
The 200 series are impressive as far as performance numbers, but holy cow do they consume some energy. If you're not running at least a 500W or even 750W PSU then that'll be an extra cost just to keep that bad boy satisfied for power consumption.

To me the most impressive gaming card in regards to power consumption and price is the ATI 4870. Mid range price and just a hair behind the 200 series, and very efficient power consumption.

[f700es]

I still have a bad taste in my mouth from ATI cards in the past for me to try again. I still don't like their driver support.

[StykFacE]

I still have a bad taste in my mouth from ATI cards in the past for me to try again. I still don't like their driver support.
I'll agree to that with CAD apps, but not for gaming. I've always been a fan for that. :)

[craigj]

Im studying architectural technology at the moment and would like to build a well spec'd computer to handle CAD 09, and I know next year we will be learning Revit. Ive put together a list of items I think would be sufficient for the job, but as always, feedback would be muchly appreciated on my selection.

INTEL CORE 2 QUAD Q8400 2.66GH
GIGABYTE EP45T-UD3LR DDR3 2200+ 1600 FSB PCI Express x16
Kingston 2 GB DDR3 x 2
NVidia GeForce 9800GT
Samsung SH-S223F SATA 22x DVD-RW
Samsung 500GB SATAII 16MB 7200RPM HDD
Cooler Master CM 690 Black
ANTEC NeoPower 550 550W
SAMSUNG 23' 2333SW

The main questions are:

Should I stick with DDR3 RAM, as it limits me to the lower end of the scale of DDR3 compliant mobos with max RAM on the mobo I chose being 8G; or should I go with the DDR2 RAM and get a comparable mobo that supports 16G RAM.
Also questioning the strengths of the graphics card and a possible upgrade on the psu if need be.
Should I stick with the Samsung monitor or just try and get as big as I can for as cheap as I can.

[kevinp]

I feel that DDR3 is only worth it if you are going with a i7 build or an AM3 mobo with DDR3 support (see below). DDR2 800 or 1066 will still be sufficient if you need to go that route - maybe lose 4% performance going from ddr3 1600 to ddr2 1066 - not enough to matter IMO.

Right now if you were going to build a computer, I think that AMDs phenom x2 940 is the BEST price:performance champ. At sub-$200, it comes close to performance of the core i7 920 (over $100 more). Not to mention a cheap AM3 mobo can be had for about $70.

I would look at getting:
Phenom x2 940
ATi HD4770 (cheap as the 9800 and WAY faster)
Gigabyte GA-MA770T-UD3P
G-SKILL 4GB DDR3 1333 (only $60)
keep everything else you had listed.

[craigj]

I thought the AMD cpus were not as good as the Intel brand.
The Corsair branded ram is pretty similar priced to the G-Skill brand in New Zealand. I went with a HD 4850 1GB card as it wasnt too much more expensive than the HD4770.

[craigj]

For an extra $360 NZD I have found I can build a healthy "bottomend" i7 rig.

Intel Core i7 920
ATI RADEON HD4870 1GB GDDR5
kingston valueram 4gb 1333mhz ddr3 non-ecc cl9
Samsung SH-S223F SATA 22x DVD-RW
Cooler Master CM 690 Black
SAMSUNG 23' 2333SW
Gigabyte GA-EX58-UD3R X58
Western Digital 640GB SATA 3 Gb/s 32MB Cache
Corsair 620W 120mm fan, Dual
Zalman ZM-F3 120mm Black Case Fan x 2

Im choosing the kingston ram as it runs at 1.5V and Intel recommends not to run ram at over 1.65V incase of damage to the cpu.

[Zorg]

OS will be 64-bit

Get 32! I've had nothing but nightmares with 64bit and cant wait to scrap it :reallymad:

[craigj]

Get 32! I've had nothing but nightmares with 64bit and cant wait to scrap it :reallymad:

What problems have you had?

[kevinp]

What problems have you had?

Not sure if hes just had bad luck, but Ive been using a 64bit OS since windows xp x64 came out (and people called it a buggy 64bit OS) - it was FAR more stable than 32bit windows I was running earlier. It makes no sense to get 32bit anymore for a workstation because of the 4GB ram limit for the system (which is 4GB combined for video ram, memory, etc - ends up giving you roughly 3GB memory in 32bit windows). If you are using more powerful cards - which can now have memory as much as 2GB per card (WOW), you seriously limit the performance of the machine when struck by the 32bit limits.

[Cad64]

I have to agree with Kevin on everything he said. When 64 bit systems first became available, they may have been buggy, but not anymore. I've been on 64 bit at work for over a year, running 8GB RAM. And now at home, I've got a 64 bit system with 12GB RAM and I have not experienced any problems.

[craigj]

I have been using the new setup for around a week now and am very impressed at the speed at which it runs CAD. Even though most of my work is still in 2D, I still find it a huge improvement over the computers we are using at Unitec.

Setup:

i7 920
P6T
GSkill 6GB 1333 kit.
HIS 4870 1GB