Advantages?

[DANIEL]

We do alot of PID work here and being completely uneducated in the use of this program I was wondering.... what advantages does this software give that would warrant its use over vanilla AutoCAD in generating and maintaining PID drawings?

[ReMark]

AutoCAD P&ID features:

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=8846468

You can also request a free trial. Give it a shot.

[DANIEL]

Thanks ReMark

[ReMark]

I'd be interested in hearing what you have to say after trying the program out. Thanks.

[DANIEL]

Well, I took a look, its probably great for someone with minimal AutoCAD experience looking to do nothing but PI work, however ..... it does not do anything that vanilla cad doesnt or can't be made to do with the proper knowledge, its basically AutoCAD Electrical, which I regret getting seats for. In my case, I was talked into autocad electrical because it 'saved' them time, but in reality they were simply being lazy. I could have easily set them up with far better attributed blocks that could be extracted into motor lists and what nots. The same applies to autocad PID except for the fact that I have actually already gone through and created all the blocks with the nessicary attribute information needed for extraction. This might be a viable option for a new company looking to genrate there initial PI's with out a lot of cad experience but beyond that I see little that this software offers.

I'd be supprised if this product has a follow up release.

[ReMark]

What about automatic symbol insertion (break line)?

[DANIEL]

worked fine, similar to what electrical does with its one line diagram blocks, except I dont recall electrical redrawing the line when it was removed. Nice but would be nicer if I had control over that function in vanilla CAD to impliment in my own blocks :D .

Does AutoCAD 2010 have that capability?

[ReMark]

I just don't know even though I have 2010 loaded on my work computer I haven't fully explored it yet.

[DANIEL]

yeah, I didnt spend alot of time on this trial download, there may be more to the software that I'm missing but on the surface it just doesn't seem worth it. I may look at it a little more closly if i get some time this week.

[ReMark]

I do a lot of P&IDs too. I work in the chemical industry. And you?

[DANIEL]

I deal mostly with the mechanical side but technically we do chemical engineering, waste water treatment plants and equipment, I'm on the solids end of the handling.

[ReMark]

Ahhhhhhh...I did a multiyear stint with a consulting environmental/engineering company concentrating on municipal and industrial wastewater systems. Everything from wastewater treatment plants, pumping stations and force mains, to filter presses, sludge handlers and chemical treatment of wastewater from plating facilities.

[DANIEL]

we actually build filter presses, multiple kinds, I work with dryers however, we turn your poo into fertalizer pellets, I'm almost afraid to ask who that was you worked with, chances are they have hired us for a job of some sort at some time.

[ReMark]

I'm in Connecticut. The big jobs were for East Lyme and Suffield. We also did another big job in Warwick, Rhode Island.

Poo? Are you related to Mike Rowe of "Dirty Jobs" fame? LOL

[DANIEL]

I'm in Connecticut. The big jobs were for East Lyme and Suffield. We also did another big job in Warwick, Rhode Island.

Poo? Are you related to Mike Rowe of "Dirty Jobs" fame? LOL

poo jokes are lost on me, we have heard them all lol, but you know the fan they talk about the stuff hitting, well, we design it, its in our plants, literally lol.

that place Mike Rowe went on dirties jobs actually installed one of our systems :D of coarse he was messing with the stuff way up dtream from where our stuff takes place lol.

[Gsilva]

If you did not see any difference between AutoCAD Vanilla and AutoCAD P&ID I'm afraid you did not see all of AutoCAD P&ID. I have also written an P&ID application for AutoCAD and it uses blocks and attributes. Yes you can use attributes to create your reports but it is really not that easy and defiantly not dynamic.

Here are some of the features I really like from AutoCAD P&ID.

1. My favorite is the Project manager where I can add and subtract data from any of the P&ID components and it does not have to be at the start of a project. Also I can change the symbol for any of the components and the next time a drawing in that project is opened up it will update that drawing with the latest symbols and will also update new data fields if added. Not so easy with attributed blocks.

2. Yes Automatically breaking the line when a symbol is inserted is nice but healing the line when it's removed is good also. Also you can use the grip to move the block and it keeps it's break. Also you can add rules so that the appropriate lines break for each other based on a priority number.

3. When you are drawing you are building your reports in the background. Yes attributes can be extracted to build a report. But go make a couple of revisions and see how good your reports are. With AutoCAD P&ID your report are live so it is ready for printing at any time. Also your equipment list is live and ready anytime. Say you wanted more information added to your reports all you have to do is add the fields to the project manager and now your reports will have those fields instantly.

These are just 3 of my favorites. One thing you said was how easy it was to operate. That is not always the case when it comes to intelligent P&ID's and the main reason a lot of companies do not use them.

You maybe able to draw a P&ID quicker than AutoCAD P&ID but when it comes to revisions or report building you will not be able to keep up. :).

I would look at AutoCAD P&ID and even CADWorx P&ID and see what they offer over vanilla AutoCAD you will be amazed. I hope this helps.

[DANIEL]

You maybe able to draw a P&ID quicker than AutoCAD P&ID but when it comes to revisions or report building you will not be able to keep up. :).



your underestimating my skills lol

[Gsilva]

your underestimating my skills lol
:oops:Sorry. I would not be able to keep up. :D

[DANIEL]

can I ask what you do for autodesk :P

[Gsilva]

can I ask what you do for autodesk :P

I was an AutoCAD P&ID reseller.:oops:

I am now self employeed and have no ties to Autodesk or a Reseller.

I have used all the different P&ID packages out there and know what the advantages are over Vanilla Autocad with either AutoCAD P&ID or CADWorx P&ID.

Most of my work now is using CADWorx and 3D modeling.

I did not reply to this thread because I was a reseller but because I did not want you to be misinformed.o:)

[ReMark]

I'd contemplate moving to AutoCAD P&ID but even as a small chemical manufacturing company we have better than 200 P&IDs dating back some 20 years. It would be a tough sell even in the best of economic climates to convince the company it would be worthwhile moving to such a package. Yeah, yeah, yeah I hear you about the benefits but all the beancounters see is the drawings we now have are pretty much done and only have to be updated when an engineering change notice is issued. Some P&IDs haven't been touched in a dozen years.

[DANIEL]

I'm in a similar situation as ReMark, in fact some are scanned in from hand drawings, at any rate, I think this PI&D forum could really benifit from someone like you, I make no arguements about not being fully informed on the product, as I told ReMark, I did not spend a lot of time on the trial and admitt there is alot i was likely missing. Hopefully I can get some time to look at it closer, but honestly, its not looking good, work takes presedence. :)

[Gsilva]

Existing plants are the hardest sell. There is no good way of taking existing drawings and making them intelligent without redrawing them. The real savings are in new construction. I have over 20 years of experience in the large engineering companies as a piping designer or Cad Coordinator. We would do P&ID's for a large job and I remember seeing a Material Takeoff Tech highlighting all the valves on a P&ID for a material drag. And at the same time the Instrument guy was doing the same thing for Instruments while someone else was doing a line list. Intelligent P&ID's may take the guy drawing them a little longer to draw but it saves hours because it eliminates the work after they are done. But of course we all know the P&ID’s are the last thing finished and they are never actually finished. It’s the same thing with intelligent piping drawings as we draw in 3D at the same time we have our sections, Plans and Automatic Isometrics and Bill of material. Yes it may take a little longer at the start but at the end you have a ton of deliverables.

[ReMark]

Well we haven't been entirely stuck in the past. For a new project three years ago we combined our P&ID symbols with attributes so we could get an accurate count of valves, instruments, etc. along with the process tag numbers but that is as far as it went. I had suggested we add descriptions (manufacturer, model number, cost, etc.) but the lead chemical engineer balked at the idea and management did not overrule him. At least I tried. Hey, that's why I put the letters n.t.e. after my name/signature. When asked what that means I reply, "Not the engineer".

[amokbelx]

I've downloaded the trial version of P&ID 2009 and I am quite happy with it. I share about everybody's comments... P&ID is great for new construction, new projects and new consulting (like us) where we don't have a database of 10's of P&IDs to redraw...

When I start my firm, I looked for something that would help me to do the design/engineering quickly. I used Visio for a while and what I like about it is the simplicity of it all and how the blocks were made for me. It was just a question of putting them in the right order.

When I found out about AutoCAD P&ID, I went crazy and downloaded it immediately. It has the same features as Visio (sorry for sounding like a newbie) but offered so much more in terms of project management, drawing management, revision management, etc.

Now, we are saving up in order to be able to purchase the P&ID version because I think that it will definitely benefit us.

As a small firm, I don't mind investing in such a software if it will save me time to do other things, like sales. We need to think about practicality and efficiency in the way we work and software helps us do that.

One more benefit is the final look of the P&ID. I'm no expert but having a standardized blocks and dimensions makes the P&ID look better, easier to follow and understand.

When I used the vanilla CAD, my blocks would look weird, some look bigger than others, etc... yes, newbie, I know... but with this software, I don't need to spend time and money on creating all of my blocks and attributes or anything of the sort.

My 2 cents :)