Need Advice - Designing House Plans

[caleb]

Hey, I’m new to Cad and was just wondering what cad type program would be the best for making house plans?
I am a builder, but I want to get into architecture design.
As a builder the plans I get to build with from architects, are sometimes so shocking, and the designs are quite bad really. Also alot of things they design do not work practically.

So I am looking for the best program for this, I have tried standard AutoCAD before, but it didn’t really seem like the type of program I wanted.
It will be used for resisdential houses btw

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[ReMark]

When you say AutoCAD "didn't really seem like the type of program I wanted" just what were you referring too? I've used AutoCAD to do architectural drawings too. Once I assembled all my block libraries (windows, doors, kitchen appliances, bathroom fixtures, etc.) the job became easier. If there's something you need many manufacturer's these days even provide, free of charge, online access to their AutoCAD block libraries (check out Anderson windows for example) for insertion into your drawing. The blocks can include plan, elevation and even sectional views. Select, download and insert. How easy is that? Maybe plain old AutoCAD is not "automatic" enough for you. Are you looking for something that is more intuitive or that will do most of the work for you? I'm sure you'll get some good suggestions here if you just stick around a bit. Good Luck. Let's us know what you decide and please share with us some insight into what influenced your decision. We can all benefit from the knowledge.

[f700es]

I would have to agree that "maybe" vanilla AutoCAD might not be the best package for you. I also believe that as a residential builder that Architectural Desktop might be WAY too much. Sure it will work but maybe not in the best way for you. We (the place I work for) are a residential design-build company and we have 4 people using ADT and I will be the 1st to admit that we use maybe 10% of the program. Now being familiar with Acad might be worth staying with say AutoCAD LT and perhaps trying an AEC add-on package. IIRC you can either order or download a 30 day demo of AutoCAD LT. Also you can download a 30 day demo of Drcauto's Smart Architect LT Pro - http://www.drcauto.com/products/smartarchitectltpro/index.html .
Sure it's $1495 but still less than Vanilla AutoCAD and it is built for AEC drawings will vanilla Acad is really not.

Other option...
SoftPlan - http://www.softplan.com/

there is another one but I can't think of it right now.

[42]

Morning

What part of the world are you from, not that will make any difference, just interested.

If you want to go down the ACAD route, I would suggest you try the LT version, much lower cost and it will for a long time be more than sufficient for your needs.

As an experienced architectural technologist I'm sorry that you are getting such bad service from our side of the industry.

If you are in England please feel free to PM me for any help or advice.

Alastair

[caleb]

^^Hi, im am from New Zealand.

I heard about a program called ArchiCAD, anyone familia with that? Apperantly its the program i want to be getting?

[scourdx]

There is no best software for making house plan. Base on my experience, there are many types of software that can do house plan, but they work differently. There are Vectorworks, Archicad, Revit, AutoCAD, InteliCAD, DataCAD, Microstation, SoftCAD, Arris and etc.

My advice:
Look for software support services in New Zealand. Typically you like to have local support instead of calling the HQ in US.
Know the drawing format Architect & Engineer typically use. You always want Architect, Engineer & contractor to share same information and share the same digital format. Sometimes different CAD software can translate drawing differently and cause time & effort to correct it.
See if there is training for the software. If there isn't a training center for a particular CAD software, it may not be beneficial to learn.
Check the price. Not every CAD software cost the same. Some are expensive and will not be beneficial.

[athlone]

hello im in ireland and only use autocad for simple agricultural shed designs to date i want to design a house is there anywhere on the net that i can download house plans and maybe just change them a bit to suit myself

[James]

hello im in ireland and only use autocad for simple agricultural shed designs to date i want to design a house is there anywhere on the net that i can download house plans and maybe just change them a bit to suit myself


tbh it would be easier in the long run to draw it from scratch, but saying that there are various resources on ebay etc that provide house plans.

[kduck63]

Get a CAD program you can afford and push it to its limits. If you know what it can and can't do, you will truly appreciate the more expensive packages.

It has been my experience that producing any CAD drawing has far more to do with the person behind the keyboard than the program itself. Having the latest and greatest software will not necessarily make you a better drafter / designer.

[SLW210]

Go with AutoCAD. If you learn to use it you will be suprised at the capabilities. AutoCAD is very customizable. :D

[Alan Cullen]

hello im in ireland and only use autocad for simple agricultural shed designs to date i want to design a house is there anywhere on the net that i can download house plans and maybe just change them a bit to suit myself

Sorry about this, athlone...I'll get back to you in a minute.......I just have to put my $0.02 in here to justify grabbing you......

caleb....you've had a whole heap of good advice here......but I have to agree with what SLW210 said.....stick to autocad and the add ons.......you will become very good at the standard cad package......all potential future employers will grab you if you savy acad...and most drafties around use acad.....so you won't have problems getting and working with potential employees.....

Now, everyone.....go about your business while I chat to athlone.....
Mate....my forebears came from Athlone......you are the first person I have ever come across from Athlone......could you do me a favour and find out a little bit about the Cullens from Athlone......I'm always here......cheers, mate......o:)

[Strix]

I've had mixed reports of archicad - and it seems to suit architects better than other people trying to produce the same thing (for some unbeknown reason)

how much detail do you require your package to produce?

have you looked at sketchup?
I think they used to have a trial version downloadable

[f700es]

I've had mixed reports of archicad - and it seems to suit architects better than other people trying to produce the same thing (for some unbeknown reason)

how much detail do you require your package to produce?

have you looked at sketchup?
I think they used to have a trial version downloadable

They have a free version now. Add the ruby script of House Builder and you are good to go!

Ruby Scripts
http://www.crai.archi.fr/RubyLibraryDepot/Ruby/RUBY_Library_Depot.htm

http://f700es.googlepages.com/house-builder.jpg

[profcad]

Take a look at Chief Architect http://www.chiefarchitect.com/

I don't use it, but seveal builders in this area use it.

[iain9876]

Just what is it about the architects drawings you find shocking??
I would think that you as a builder work with several different architects....there must be someone out there you have worked with who produces good drawings.

There are programs out there where you type in the dimensions and it can create a floor plan for you...
The problem here arises when you actually need to build from it and need to produce details.

The details will have to be approved by your local authority, sometimes these guys even specify what line types and line colours they require... getting something through local authority planning approval can be a lengthy process...something the builders rarely see the full light of. Your time here would be wasted and non-productive. What about engineering drawings...you going to attempt them too??

Frankly speaking, I don't think you as a builder could even compete with the architects in the drawing department/design especially if you have no cad exeperience before, and are asking us for tips...

Tip..

Concentrate on building better more sound buildings and teaching your guys to read drawings properly. Concentrate on man/materials management and delivering the final product on time! The time there is better spent I think.

If you want your clients to come to you for a complete solution..then find yourself an architect you like.

I don't mean this to sound bad, just giving you real advice. Because as a builder you see the final (ish) plans issued to you.

These may look to you like a set of pretty or unpretty drawings, but they are usually the product of months or even years of negotiating and planning depending on the size of the job.

[Strix]

Iain, was that personal attack really necessary?

the op only said SOME drawings he's had to work to were unworkable - which I can appreciate from either side of the drawing production process

If all he's doing is domestic work, there's no reason why he can't learn to produce his own drawings - especially if he's doing repeats of similar projects rather than bespoke projects each time

[ZenCad1960]

If all he's doing is domestic work, there's no reason why he can't learn to produce his own drawings - especially if he's doing repeats of similar projects rather than bespoke projects each time

I would have to somewhat agree with Strix here. I was a contractor building residential housing, apartments and condos for 15 years before moving into the office. I have seen both fantastic drawings and drawings you just scratch your head and think what the **** were they thinking. To be real, it really depends on the architect and the drafting support they have. Even though the building is a sound design, paper plans that are messy, unclear and look like crap, are useless.

As a builder I knew just about every phase of the 'building process' there was. All the permitting, all the inspections, all of it. However it is another thing to design this for a brand new building with no cookie cutter plans to go by. If you have the cookie cutter types of homes, then it is a snap. Keep in mind however some agencies require an architect's seal so you would have to find someone for that and we can all agree, some of them are touchy about their seals as they should be.

Doing it on your own for a full housing project will be a rough road for a while until you get the right people in place as support but it isn't un-doable. It is just going to be maybe a little more involved than you think. Don't take on a job until you are ready. Do your homework, draw some up and have an architect look at them and advise you if you are heading the the right direction or not.

I think that last post was a little strong in telling you to not try at all. If you want to give it a go, I say go for it. Nothing ventured nothing gained.

Have a great weekend.

[P_c]

^^Hi, im am from New Zealand.

I heard about a program called ArchiCAD, anyone familia with that? Apperantly its the program i want to be getting?

Gday, Neighbour

From my experience i would defenitly give archicad by graphisoft a try. http://www.graphisoft.com/ Im not to sure if they have a free version to try, but it is well worth a look. Alongside AutoCad which i use for civil work, i use Archicad for architectural work and i find it to be a very usefull and good program to use with practice.

The automatic sections/elevations can be really usefull and time saving as well as the 3D aspect of building design.
Most of the work in the program is done using 3d objects/tools eg. Walls can be easily made just by specifying a height and width, along with other attributes if nessesary.

Keep in mind though, dont draw everything in 3d if you can to save time during the rendering process.

As a little note, archicad files can also be made compatible to use in cinema 4d to realy get that realistic looking render.

Thumbs up from me. Go for it.:)
Pauly

[PS_Port]

I guess it all comes down to how much time you want to put into it,
for most of us this is our job, 'using CAD' so your question would be like an architect/drafty saying whats the best tool to be a builder,:lol:
Back to to your original question , Autocad is like pitching a roof where as Archicad & others are like using prefab trusses, the program does alot for you, but you need to understand why/what its doing.
I know doesn't help much just my 0.2c.
Which everway you go, stick around places like this and your already a mile ahead.
Cheers Paul

[kmapro]

As a tenured design/build company owner, I can feel where Caleb is coming from.

There are way too many "architects" out there that do nothing besides draw a pretty picture. They draw out something that is aesthitically pleasing and rely on someone else to make it work.

Now I say "architects" because this falls in line with licensed architects as well as residential designers who think they know everything.

Too many people out there designing structures who have never swung a hammer. Now, you do not have to be a builder to know how to design a house, but it helps if you know how things are going to go together. This way you know what information is necessary in order to build the structure.

Now, i will step off of my lecturing stool and get back to the original question.

I have been designing houses with AutoCAd for about 12 years now. I have recently switched to Cadsoft Envisioneer. It is not a plug in program, but it is based off of the same design engine that ACAD uses. I like it because I can directly import all of the blocks I designed in ACAD in to Envisioneer. i can also import any 3d designs I have created in Google Sketch-Up in it.

There are many websites that have premade blocks (as already mentioned) that can be downloaded in to the program.

Best of all, the proce of Envisioneer is only around $900. I bought mine earlier this year and it was only $864 (gove or take a little).

Give them a look www.cadsoft.com and look at Envisioneer. They have a great users forum as well.

[Cad Sponge]

I wub my ADT, I would never part with it.

[f700es]

Rhino v4 can do it better than anything, it also slices bread and takes the dog for walks.......(smack - slaps hand) oh my bad :wink: :twisted:

[iain9876]

Iain, was that personal attack really necessary?

the op only said SOME drawings he's had to work to were unworkable - which I can appreciate from either side of the drawing production process

If all he's doing is domestic work, there's no reason why he can't learn to produce his own drawings - especially if he's doing repeats of similar projects rather than bespoke projects each time

Strix,

No personal attack intended.

I wouldn't like to give him advice that would send him down a route, for what could be a long time only for him to fall flat on his face.

A builder could never compete with an architect in the cad/planning process department. There is simply too much involved. If your in the business then you should know better. Planning can be a very complicated and lengthy sensitive process.

Why subject the guy to wasting his time, when it could be better spent elsewhere.
I've worked with several cowboy contractors who think architects and engineers are just a complete waste of time and they can do better...infact they think that about pretty much all the professionals. Not all contractors mind you..mostly only the non-professional building contractors I have worked with.

I'm just giving the guy a shortcut out of trouble thats all.

In no way is it a personal attack... Just giving "real advice" sigh.

Its one thing to draw designs, its another to see things from an architects view with respect to the full planning process of negotiating your designs with a local authority and other design professionals.

It all depends what he wants to get out of this. If it is for small house extensions then AutoCad would do everything he wants. Like with all programs there is a learning curve which he needs to get over.

What he really needs to understand is what he is doing with the program, and not depend on automation.

Perhaps if there is anyone here from the architects/cad areas who can also put some light to this builder that his road to taking the role of the designer is not an easy one and should be thought out a bit more carefully???

[kmapro]

I will agree with iain for the most part.

It is one thing to draw a design, it is another whole part of it to know why it is drawn.

This is why I stressed that you have to know how things go together before you can just jump in and start designing a house. Spans, loads, space use and material selection all play a key role in the design. If you don't know why a beam has to be in a certain place, then it is better left to a design professional.

I guess a way to put in to perspective of a builder would be like this:

Any one can pick up a hammer and call themselves a builder..just like any one can pick up a pencil, draw a few lines and call themselves a designer.

There is a lot more to being a builder than just knowing how to swing a hammer...and there is a lot more to designing a home than just knowing how to draw lines.

[iain9876]

I will agree with iain for the most part.

It is one thing to draw a design, it is another whole part of it to know why it is drawn.

This is why I stressed that you have to know how things go together before you can just jump in and start designing a house. Spans, loads, space use and material selection all play a key role in the design. If you don't know why a beam has to be in a certain place, then it is better left to a design professional.

I guess a way to put in to perspective of a builder would be like this:

Any one can pick up a hammer and call themselves a builder..just like any one can pick up a pencil, draw a few lines and call themselves a designer.

There is a lot more to being a builder than just knowing how to swing a hammer...and there is a lot more to designing a home than just knowing how to draw lines.

I couldnt have put it better myself....thats more or less the point I was making in a round about sort of way.
That there is more to the drawing than a pretty picture....I was trying to say its a long learning path to go down and one that shouldn't be taken lightly...especially if you are trying it out for your business..it could be the cause for great embarrassment.... so why bother... stick to something your good at. Asking for advice on a good package to change things isn't the answer.

[Cad Sponge]

I was a contractor for 7 years. I am now an architect. To speak from personal experience. MOST architects and designers do not understand what they are designing from our perspective. It's just lines on a piece of paper to you guys. Being a contractor gives us the gift of visualization. Something that people with no practical knowledge of building have no idea about. It is my personal opinion that everyone who wants to design structures, should be mandated to spend 5 years in the construction trade. I could go on and on about this forever. Bottom line is, contractors can see many things architects and designers cannot. They can learn the rest of the design process. But people without hands on knowlege can never see it from our point of view.

[iain9876]

I was a contractor for 7 years. I am now an architect. To speak from personal experience. MOST architects and designers do not understand what they are designing from our perspective. It's just lines on a piece of paper to you guys. Being a contractor gives us the gift of visualization. Something that people with no practical knowledge of building have no idea about. It is my personal opinion that everyone who wants to design structures, should be mandated to spend 5 years in the construction trade. I could go on and on about this forever. Bottom line is, contractors can see many things architects and designers cannot. They can learn the rest of the design process. But people without hands on knowlege can never see it from our point of view.

Exactly Right,

[kmapro]

CAD Sponge - I believe you hit one of the on going arguements directly on the head!!!

I am a member of another site for design and that site is primarliy ran by architects. I frequent the residential design area of the forum and make my comments known there as well. I am repeatedly shot down by architects who believe I have no business in the design field because I do not have the "proper" schooling.

No, I am not a registered architect nor have I ever portrayed myself as one. I refer to myself as a design professional. I got my schooling by the school of hard knocks.

I have owned and operated a poured wall (cast in place concrete) company and I currently work for one of (if not the) largest engineered wood product companies in the world.

I have pretty much worked in every facet of residential building - with the exception of roofing - so I have been around the block when it comes to building.

Along with my day job (at the EWP company) I also own and operate my own residential design/build company - mostly focusing on the design part right now.

I am in 100% agreement with you in the idea that architects (only because that profession is covered through a governing body) should have to work in the field before they can be issued a license. Now with that being siad, I also believe that a designer should have credentials pointing back to actual in field experience as well...I am not bashing architects, just focusing on the fact that they are licensed and governed.

I wish residential designers had a governing body that was mandated - other than the AIBD.

From my experiences, you can make anything look good on paper but it is in the field where it counts.


Now Caleb - please do not see our comments negatively. I speak for myself when I say that I encourage you to venture out and see what you can make happen - and I believe I speak for all of us - BUT we want you ta know that there is a whole lot more to it than just knowing how to operate a CAD program and knowing how to draw lines.

Yes, you do have a leg up in the fact that you are a builder and you see where areas could be improved. I would almost venture to bet that it is just the quality of the plans you are working from hat is the problem.

IMHO - there is a fine line between supplying enough information to accurately build a structure and supplying more than enough which causes confusion and misunderstaning.

[iain9876]

With all that said though, I hear Archicad is a very good option other than AutoCad. :)

[pennylove]

CAD Sponge - I believe you hit one of the on going arguements directly on the head!!!

I am a member of another site for design and that site is primarliy ran by architects. I frequent the residential design area of the forum and make my comments known there as well. I am repeatedly shot down by architects who believe I have no business in the design field because I do not have the "proper" schooling.

I work for architects and am going to school right now for a construction management degree. And I have seen this attitude thrown at me (about not having the "proper" schooling) more times than I can count. I have worked with arhitects who have 10 more years experiance in this field than I have, but I can still put together a better set of drawings than they can. (I still have a lot of learning to go, but I have worked with some really bad architects that were more worried about the pretty pictures than the actual condition of their drawings, and I've worked with good architects too.) Their attitude about my sub-human status really irritates me, especially when I do a better job than someone with the "right" education and a license.

Sorry for the rant, but my point is that getting field experiance is more important than learning a software package and will inevidably change anyways (as is with all software). So try working as a carpenter or something else along those lines first.

[iain9876]

I work for architects and am going to school right now for a construction management degree. And I have seen this attitude thrown at me (about not having the "proper" schooling) more times than I can count. I have worked with arhitects who have 10 more years experiance in this field than I have, but I can still put together a better set of drawings than they can. (I still have a lot of learning to go, but I have worked with some really bad architects that were more worried about the pretty pictures than the actual condition of their drawings, and I've worked with good architects too.) Their attitude about my sub-human status really irritates me, especially when I do a better job than someone with the "right" education and a license.

Sorry for the rant, but my point is that getting field experiance is more important than learning a software package and will inevidably change anyways (as is with all software). So try working as a carpenter or something else along those lines first.

Poor thing.

why dont you just punch them all!

[Cad Sponge]

I work for architects and am going to school right now for a construction management degree. And I have seen this attitude thrown at me (about not having the "proper" schooling) more times than I can count. I have worked with arhitects who have 10 more years experiance in this field than I have, but I can still put together a better set of drawings than they can. (I still have a lot of learning to go, but I have worked with some really bad architects that were more worried about the pretty pictures than the actual condition of their drawings, and I've worked with good architects too.) Their attitude about my sub-human status really irritates me, especially when I do a better job than someone with the "right" education and a license.

Sorry for the rant, but my point is that getting field experiance is more important than learning a software package and will inevidably change anyways (as is with all software). So try working as a carpenter or something else along those lines first.


Right on penny. Undfortunately almost everyone with a graduate degree has a big head.

[StykFacE]

good one, penny.

and any C average student can get a degree in architectural design, no matter if they ever picked up a hammer and nail. I have no degree, and i'm the best drafter my company has ever seen, because one, computers and design have always been a hobby since I was little, and two, because I worked in the field during and after high school for four years. so I actually "know" what I'm drawing. :wink:

[Cad Sponge]

good one, penny.

and any C average student can get a degree in architectural design, no matter if they ever picked up a hammer and nail. I have no degree, and i'm the best drafter my company has ever seen, because one, computers and design have always been a hobby since I was little, and two, because I worked in the field during and after high school for four years. so I actually "know" what I'm drawing. :wink:


Not entirely true. The examination test for the NAAB is very very hard. It only has a 10% pass rate.

[architecture68-raff]

good one, penny.

and any C average student can get a degree in architectural design, no matter if they ever picked up a hammer and nail. I have no degree, and i'm the best drafter my company has ever seen, because one, computers and design have always been a hobby since I was little, and two, because I worked in the field during and after high school for four years. so I actually "know" what I'm drawing. :wink:

While I agree with most of you here Styk, I just want to emphasize the differences between a two-year tech degree in architectural design and a master's degree in architecture. If it was that easy (even for C average students), every "architectural designer" would become a licensed architect.

You did hit the nail on the head regarding field experience, though. Some architects stare at details on screen all day, but are lost when they go to a job site. I have heard subs talk about "reading the funnies" or the "comic section" when referring to a set of plans by a certain architect I know.

[iain9876]

Not entirely true. The examination test for the NAAB is very very hard. It only has a 10% pass rate.

Have to agree with cad sponge here. There is more to being an architect than just producing a pretty drawing...

come on guys...whats all this "i am junior and I can draw better than them blah blah blah".

I thought we were above that

And whats all this working in the field malarky....doesn't that make you like a farmer of something.......(drum roll and hi hat)[/

[StykFacE]

wow, lol, i guess everyone missed the sarcasm..... thanks yet again for pointed me out Cad Sponge. Looks like I have a fanboy on this board now. :unsure:

I always use that line about something... it's like a joke. kinda like "every C average student becomes a doctor." Now who's gonna let a C average student that barely passed everything become a full fledged doctor? :lol:

I dunno.

And raff, about your "comic book" comment... haha, I used to say that when I started in the field, now that i'm up here I see what it's all about. Plus, I don't know that many field guys really understand the standards and engineering put behind many drawings, especially at my office. it's crazy what you have to know to make sure things are right.

but anyone that's either in the field, or in the office drafting - now that i've been on both sides of the fence I definitely have more repect for both.

But then again, you always have those few that always seem to amaze us how they got where they're at.... 8)

[kmapro]

I am by no means throwing stones at architects. I have said many times, on the other forum, that I respect them - what they have accomplished - what they do - and how they do it.

BUT - the fact that they have a degree in architecture doesn't mean that they can design a house any better than I can. I repeatedly get stones thrown at me for the simple fact that I do not have the degree...even when most of my comments about certain aspects are highly agreed upon.

No, I don't have a degree in architecture. Would I like one....honestly, I would have to say yes, but it would only be to enhance what i already know.

As I mentioned earlier, I work for one of the largest engineered wood companies in the world. I design houses in my free time and have been very successfull with my endeavors. Previously I worked for a production home builder as their chief designer..I have been around the block when it comes to residential design.

On the other forum I mentioned, we had a heated debate about architects vs. residential designers. During that debate, one of the architects (or studying architects) advised all designers not to spec engineered beam sizes. I was taken back with that because I thought that an architects job was to design and spec material - how else would they know what works and what doesn't.

I spoke up and made fact that I design beams all day long through my day job - true it may be because that is what I have been trained to do - but shouldn't that have been covered in their education as well?

Also, and this is not a poke at architects but a statement in general, I find it real disheartening that architecture is now listed under "arts", in curriculum, as opposed to science or engineering. What does this say to everyone who looks at the curriculum?

Again, I must state that I do not "hate" architects...there are just SOME that are full of theirselves and think they are God's gift to the design world..when the truth is that they probably couldn't design a thrown together shack...much less build it.

Yes, I whole heartedly believe that a studying architect should have to spend time in the field or at the very least be required to take construction classes as part of their studies.

[StykFacE]

Again, I must state that I do not "hate" architects...there are just SOME that are full of theirselves and think they are God's gift to the design world..when the truth is that they probably couldn't design a thrown together shack...much less build it.
Trust me, I feel your pain. We got a fresh kid right outta college, as in he got hired 7 days after he got his Bachelors in Mechanical Engineering this year. He's never worked in the field, and his college was paid for. He's a great guy, and he'll learn everything eventually, but it's been a hard road for him and I, because I have been picking up lots of his work for him. At least he's humble about most things he's learned. I just think it's funny cuz he told me about 2 weeks before he graduated high school, he said,"Hmm, I think i wanna be a mechanical engineer." and boom - 4 years later he has a degree... haha.

Kinda the same situation for my direct boss who is one of our two Texas Licensed engineers.... except he's been here for 15 years and has the experience gained from all the work, so he's sharp as a razor in his design work.

Sometimes that's all people need, is just the experience. :wink:

[Alan Cullen]

Sometimes that's all people need, is just the experience. :wink:

Styk.....most times that is what people need.......

As for architects......I'll say straight out.....I don't like them. My brother is an architect and he knows my feelings towards architects......so he never talks about anything architecturally related in front of me.......

But it's not the reasons brought up here that I don't like them.....I don't like them because they have a habit of making my job so much more difficult......and they are too rigid in their beliefs and wont bend......and will not bend for anyone......even though the integrety of their design is not compromised.

Being Engineers, when that happens, we just tell them what will happen......and skew them.......and that is why we do not get on with architects........

[pennylove]

On the other forum I mentioned, we had a heated debate about architects vs. residential designers. During that debate, one of the architects (or studying architects) advised all designers not to spec engineered beam sizes. I was taken back with that because I thought that an architects job was to design and spec material - how else would they know what works and what doesn't.

Actually, I have reviewed their curriculum and they do require structural classes. The construction management degree that I'm taking also requires the same amount of structural classes. (When my work was reviewed by a Dean of an arch school, he said that my statics class would probably allow me to test out of two of their struct classes) It's just that the state law doesn't allow architects to design struct or MEP on a job.

My thing is that I'm upset that my exeriance isn't good enough to allow me to sit for the exam and get a license if I am able to pass the same tests that the people with the "right" education can do. I had actually looked into going to arch school, but their design classes by itself without any other required coursework was about 40 hours a week worth of work (then add in a few more classes on top of that). Now how is that fair to a non-traditional adult student who HAS to work to continue to feed herself? Their program is made for only people fresh out of high school that can get away with not working, or for the rich people who don't have to work. Since I am neither, I'm kinda sh@! out of luck.

That's why I'm a little bitter, because it doesn't matter how much knowledge I accumulate or even how good I am at my job, I will never be good enough because I don't have the "right" education. And by never good enough, I mean that my opinions won't be respected and my ideas immediatly get shot down until somebody miraculously thinks of the same thing. And a lot of this could all stem from working with the wrong company. It's not as bad as I make it sound, I just get so flustrated sometimes. And I'm severally underpaid, a condition that I only allow because I'm making it right now and I'm still a student. But, enough about my rants.

Working on my degree in construction management has taught me things that I could never learn in an office. I think it's important for a person to learn what both sides of the fence looks like in order to truely see the whole picture. This helps tremendously when doing either job. And everybody complains whether it's the contractors making fun of arch poor job, or arch making fun of contractor's for being slow. It's human nature to complain about something or somebody else because for some reason it allows us to vent a little and also makes us feel better.

[NuttZ]

I have a BS in Architectural Engineering...and frankly don't want to get my license. I once wanted to go graduate school and then do my intern ship and be licensed but I got a job right out of college at a major firm and didn’t like it.
Now I am in building management, doing CAD work...and love it, but I also help a local architect out with drafting from time to time at his private practice :D

[Cad Sponge]

wow, lol, i guess everyone missed the sarcasm.....

Sarcasm is a bit hard to interpruit over the internet man.......And I'm not trying to pick on you. I just don't agree with a lot of your views, sorry if it appears that way.

Also, I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea. I still stick by everything I said earlier. 90% of architects have no practical experience, and should have to work in the field for a few years. I am just saying that it's really hard for a moron to become a licensed architect. The test harder and longer than the bar exam, to give you a reference. So architects may have no practical experience, and I certainly believe that all of you can produce better drawings than your employers. Just don't be fooled into thinking just because you can design better, that they are stupid.

[StykFacE]

Sarcasm is a bit hard to interpruit over the internet man.......And I'm not trying to pick on you. I just don't agree with a lot of your views, sorry if it appears that way.

Na man, that's cool.... nor worries over here. except one thing - we both know that we don't "agree" on certain views so there was no need to spell it out. That was very clear in the last thread between us. I won't quote you anymore and put in my $0.02, and I hope you can do the same so no other arguments come between us.

85% of my posts are sarcastic. 15% of my posts are helping other's solve problems on here. So, now that i've said that, it should be very clear to you that all i'm doing is just passing time at work on here, and always typing with a smile. :)

[explorer]

I'm an architecture student myself, and I think the best analogy of the architects relationship with building, the engineer, the technologist etc is a film director.

You can let the cameraman be the director because he has the most visual control, or you can let the writer be the director cos he knows the story best, but I dont think the result would be the same

So think of the architects education as one to be a good director. He/she might not have "hands on experience," cos theyre too busy going to school for 7 years on student loans and dealing with studio projects. But in the end the time is spent learning a bit of everything so they get the "big picture" and are able to coordinate everything

Also by becoming licensed and approving a building, an architect takes alot of responsibility and is liable for everything and in the public eye, it helps if you have credentials to back it. Thats why people tend to "look down" on people without degrees. That time is actually spent learning something (i hope)

that being said, I personally make an effort to do construction for my summer job.

It also pays better lol

and back on topic, I also would recommend archicad as you think of things as objects and not a bunch of lines so it is much more like costructing a building and less a "pretty drawing" as everyone says, it also makes management easier

[StykFacE]

and back on topic, I also would recommend archicad as you think of things as objects and not a bunch of lines so it is much more like costructing a building and less a "pretty drawing" as everyone says, it also makes management easier
Yes, this is a great program. A friend of mine uses this program day in and day out, and he's came up with some phenomenal looking stuff in a short time. Good tip. :thumbsup:

[pennylove]

I'm an architecture student myself....................

Also by becoming licensed and approving a building, an architect takes alot of responsibility and is liable for everything and in the public eye, it helps if you have credentials to back it. Thats why people tend to "look down" on people without degrees. That time is actually spent learning something (i hope)

WOW....uhhmmm.......words escape me........almost.

First of all, I (like many and most people on this forum) are not "uneducated". Most of us have lots of experiance PLUS education. Secondly, I cannot believe that you actually support the whole "looking down" on people without the "right" degrees. Your argument is about learning to work with the whole picture, but school is not the only way to learn this.

I have personally taught many intern architects how to do their job and be efficient at it, along with teaching them how "to see the whole picture". Apparently they aren't doing that good a job at that in school. My point is that you can't learn everything in school, and experiance counts for a great deal. Sometimes us poor people don't have a choice to go to school and have to start working immediatly after high school, and experiance is all we got. But don't ever let that fool you into thinking that we don't know how to do our job just as good as someone with a degree.

If a person with only experiance can pass the same 9 section NAAB tests that someone who has the "right" education can, is it really so hard to admit that we are just as smart as you? I had heard once from someone who graduated with a Professional Architecture degree that they actually teach people in school that they are God's gift to the industry. I thought he was grossly exagerating....apparently not.

[StykFacE]

Sometimes us poor people don't have a choice to go to school and have to start working immediatly after high school, and experiance is all we got.
Amen to that. haha :lol:

[explorer]

I hate the system too, if it werent for schoalrships and loans i wouldnt be able to go to school either.
free post secondary education should be a right

im not just speaking from my point of view, its public opinion
you think that way too you are just biased in this instance
would you let a nurse run a hospital? or a fully qualified doctor?
would the general public allow it?

this isnt about being "smarter" I dont consider someone as smart as me cos they can match me on a test nor do i consider myself smarter than say... bill gates who doesnt have a degree at all

I cant believe you take it so personally. It is a reflection of a rules and regulations that exist in all professional industries and these rules are put in place under the assumption that this is the best way to qualify people for these positions because it is so much more than just a test


gods gift, yes the schools like to say that but only because we're insecure

[Cad Sponge]

Na man, that's cool.... nor worries over here. except one thing - we both know that we don't "agree" on certain views so there was no need to spell it out. That was very clear in the last thread between us. I won't quote you anymore and put in my $0.02, and I hope you can do the same so no other arguments come between us.

85% of my posts are sarcastic. 15% of my posts are helping other's solve problems on here. So, now that i've said that, it should be very clear to you that all i'm doing is just passing time at work on here, and always typing with a smile. :)

No worries, not agreeing doesn't mean we are arguing. I am a grown man and welcome all comments and critisism, good or bad. I don't mind that you are quoting and responding to my posts. After all this is a forum for discussion.

[StykFacE]

Cool beans then. :wink:

[NuttZ]

If a person with only experiance can pass the same 9 section NAAB tests that someone who has the "right" education can, is it really so hard to admit that we are just as smart as you?

I agree with you 100% on that.

[explorer]

Pennylove,

in canada they have an apprentice program to become an architect too

http://www.raic-syllabus.ca/

10 years, but you qualify for exams

is there anything like that in the states?

[NuttZ]

Pennylove,

in canada they have an apprentice program to become an architect too

http://www.raic-syllabus.ca/

10 years, but you qualify for exams

is there anything like that in the states?

used to be...just depends on the State.

http://www.ncarb.org/stateboards/index.html

[pennylove]

In some states, yes. In the one I'm living in, they are phasing it out and I will be short about 2 months experiance before the time limit is up. And more if I decide to have children before I'm the age of 40. Damn overies.

Oh well, if i want it that bad i can always move. Or find a way to beat the system. Trouble is, the construction side pays way better than the arch side.....humm.....hard decision, i like arch a lot, but my student loans will be higher than my mortage payment. Oh, what to do, what to do.

[explorer]

I agree with a program like this, something where the experience you get is based on a curriculum and reflects time and effort building up a background. But I dont see why everyone believes a test is an accurate indicator of ones qualifications.

I dont think any test, no matter how comprehensive can reflect 7 years of education +3 years of exp (in canada). Having prerequisites like these are as, if not far more important than the test itself

[pennylove]

I completely disagree with you. I have worked in teh same office with one person who has 18 years experiance only, and another with 12 years experiance plus the education plus a lisence, and the one with the only experiance was much better at running a project.

As far as education goes, do you think in your opinion that it HAS to be a specific degree? Or education in general is good enough?

Take me, for example. The difference between our degree programs is this: You take design classes and arch history classes, I do not. I take a lot more building classes than you do plus more management classes. Most of my classmates can't graduate sooner than 5 years, some it's 6 or 7 years, because of the shear amount of required courses for our degree program.

Does that education count for nothing? Accourding to law it doesn't, and I think that's wrong.

[StykFacE]

Well there's a difference between "general education classes" and then learning a "trade".

I 100% absolutely hate the fact that you HAVE to take these 'core' classes, at least most of them. Most people have one interest, and the more education/experience you get in that specific field, the better off you'll be in the long run, making yourself smarter, more effecient, and make your company more money alltogether.

Call me old school, but whatever happened to the type of people who just went out there, got a job, learned it, and learned it well because they started right outta high school and by the time they were 30 they had 12 years experience and more qualifications than someone with a 6 year degree fresh outta school with 2 years experience on top of that high-paid education?

I'm an extrememly fast AutoCAD drafter because computers have been my hobby since I was 12. I built my first computer at age 16, and picked up AutoCAD when I was 18. I'm like the race car driver who is also the mechanic. I have more logical thinking towards computers and AutoCAD than most people with a 4 year degree in it - because I've lived and breathed it on my own interest, not because I had to from college courses.

That's the real difference in all this. You do find people w/o any actual higher education that completely thrusts forward as if they had a top notch degree under their belts. :)

[explorer]

Why are you taking that instead of an architecture program then? if it ends up being 5, 6 or 7 years, is it because its part time?
I dont think thats a fair comparison then
the technologist dilpomas here are 2.5 years full time

I think its just too difficult to qualify people without these rules, some people may be qualified, but i think that there has to be some structure and content that reflects what these people know beyond just a test. They specifically choose these prerequistie for a reason

There is a school in canada called ryerson and they offer a bachelor of architecture that isnt accredited and thus graduates cant take the exam. its not just about the degree

in terms of the courses, thats exactly what i mean about the schools being insecure. Honestly I dont know what I'm going to do without knowing building code or more about structures. It seems like we hand everything off to the engineer/technologist. but what they say at school is these things u can learn on the job, what they teach about design you cannot.

I think they just want to pump as much design philosophy in you as possible and hope you turn out like a le corbusier or frank lloyd wright

take all this with a grain of salt though cos im only going into my 2nd year,

its never too late, the guy who sits next to me in studio is 43 with 2 teenaged kids

[pennylove]

I completely agree with Skykface.

And to answer your question, it's a simple matter of math. I am an adult with adult bills, and therefore must work to put food in my mouth and keep creditors from calling. So here is the math part: 40 hour work week + 12 hours of class each week + 12 hours of homework each week = 64 hours a week.

With the arch degree: 40 hour work week + 12 hour week design lab + 9 other hours of required coursework + 25 hours a week for design homework + 9 hours a week for other class homework = 95 hours a week.

I was accepted into an arch program immediatly when i applied without having to wait, but call me crazy, I don't think I can do 95 hours a week for 5 years and remain sane and not burnt out. I'm very tired now as it is.

And the guy sitting next to you in class is probably working only part time or has money or has a wife to support him. I have none of those things. And like I said before, 95% of what you learn in the classroom can be learned thru experiance.

[StykFacE]

Bills ain't no joke, that's for sure. and now that i'm making good money for myself, kinda makes it hard to drop the nice truck I have, and the extra spending money cuz i've been broke since I was 18 when I moved out from my parent's into the real world. After 5 years of struggling, it's just natural for someone to get used to a little financial stability than to keep paying your dues.

I'm just like most average people in this world... haha. Funny how things work out... 6 weeks before I graduated high school I had this entire plan laid out: college for four years, get a degree, make awesome money. lol, boy was I wrong, but hey, i'm having fun and I love my job, and i'll always be good at it. :wink:

[pennylove]

I think they just want to pump as much design philosophy in you as possible and hope you turn out like a le corbusier or frank lloyd wright

I forgot to add, Frank Lloyd Wright didn't have an arch degree, in fact, he was a college drop out. So he is actually a perfect example how someone with no degree and exeriance can be sucessful in that field. Thanks for making my point for me!!!!

[explorer]

Im not going to win here ><

really i am trying to justify spending all this money and all this time.
that 45 hrs in studio is not accurate at all, i spend 9+ hrs at studio 7 days a week minimum

I want to be clear that I am not saying that those with degrees know more/less its just that legally they've set these things in place because it is the most objective way of qualifying people. You cannot qualify people just because they have experience, you need to know WHAT experience that is and they try to do this by having a curriculum.

That being said Im 19 and working as a draftsman this summer and I dont have any drafting certifications. everything i learned on my own and from others (here as well). So im all for loopholes around the system

heard of an architect named Tadao Ando?

[explorer]

I forgot to add, Frank Lloyd Wright didn't have an arch degree, in fact, he was a college drop out. So he is actually a perfect example how someone with no degree and exeriance can be sucessful in that field. Thanks for making my point for me!!!!

Frank Lloyd Wright was of the "apprenticeship" school,

Tadao Ando is a better example

[explorer]

forgot to add a winking smiley or whatever it is kids add these days

[pennylove]

Im not going to win here ><

really i am trying to justify spending all this money and all this time.
that 45 hrs in studio is not accurate at all, i spend 9+ hrs at studio 7 days a week minimum

I want to go to school where you do!! I was told that design class was 5 credit hours, and that they meet 12 hours a week, and double that for outside work at minimum, which is where I got 37 hours a week soley for one class. Plus all arch that I have interviewed have confirmed these requirements. Maybe it's different in canada, if that's the case, your country is much more reasonable than ours.

[explorer]

here it is 3 scheduled studio meetings each 4 hours
where the profs and ta's are there to help
and then there is all the other scheduled stuff like electives, technology etc

and basically every waking hour you're expected to spend doing your studio work. so in terms of studio time i think im at about 50 hours a week minimum + everything else

but i wouldnt really say its reasonable lol, 63+ hours a week....

[pennylove]

Ahh, so you see my point. 63 + hours a week on school alone, then add another 40 for work so that you can do something silly like eat.

[explorer]

loans my friend loans

also canadian tuition is much lower than US

and scholarships

[StykFacE]

loans my friend loans

also canadian tuition is much lower than US

and scholarships
Unless you're not a whitey. and no speak engrish.... :lol:

j/k 8)

[Cad Sponge]

And like I said before, 95% of what you learn in the classroom can be learned thru experiance.


Exactly the point we were trying to make earlier in the post. It is a one way street. You can learn the design through on the job training and classes. Architects cannot grasp the concepts that the people who have practical experience in the field can.

[pennylove]

Unless you're not a whitey. and no speak engrish.... :lol:

j/k 8)

ROFL......soooooooooooooo true.....i've got scholarships, but not nearly enough...........................and since i'm a whitey (and not white trash) i prescribe to the notion that food doesn't magically appear of it's own accord while i sit on my buttocks.

Damn my good work ethics, what is wrong with me? At least i'm not a white man, then i'd get NOOOO scholarships or help of any kind. Welcome to the land of the FEE!! Oh, wait, was that supposed to be free?

[Cad Sponge]

This whole issue has been going on for about 60 years now. I don't think we are gonna resolve it in one thread =]