Jump to content

Huge scan files


CyberAngel

Recommended Posts

Searched for this on the forums, couldn't find an answer.

 

We have a new scanner. The old scanner would produce TIFF files that were typically 200-800KB for a D or E size sheet. The new scanner produces TIFF files that are almost 60MB uncompressed at 600dpi. If I use CCITT Group 4 compression and drop the dpi to 400, the files go to about 8MB. Converting to PDF (which is the ultimate goal) doesn't change the file size significantly. I'd like to get the file size down to what we had with the old scanner. Any ideas?

 

The scanner is a Lanier (used, looks like an LP124W). The software is RW-240 Scantool.

 

We have a related issue in the scanning process itself. At random intervals the scan shifts over, as if the paper or the scanning mechanism had moved slightly. I know that's not happening, so it's probably a software problem. The salesman says he'll look into it, but you know how salesmen are once you've bought it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 24
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • CyberAngel

    9

  • rkmcswain

    7

  • Jack_O'neill

    5

  • SLW210

    2

Top Posters In This Topic

Posted Images

Just based on that info, my guess would be that the old scanner was scanning in monochrome (2 color, bitonal, B/W), and the new one is scanning in grayscale or even color.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

RK is probably right, and it may be that your new scanner's lowest resolution is higher than your old scanner's best. Got into that once myself. Place I worked for had a giant scanner that was an antique in computer hardware terms, and it had a maximum resolution of 300 dpi. Something on it broke one day and a replacement could not be found. We bought a new scanner, and the lowest it would go was 600.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why not go back to the old scanner? Or at least to the format or software the old scanner used. Maybe that it isn't possible, but worth a try.

 

What are you scanning? How much detail do you need? If you are going to PDF why not scan straight to PDF? There are all kinds of TIFF compression.

 

We have lots of old aerials here that are just to large to work with as TIFFS, but do show lots of detail, usually more than I need. I have read several web sites that advocate it is now cheaper to upgrade your hardware to handle the large files than to compress large TIFFs, if you need to retain the detail. Plenty of reading online for options, if you do not require the detail.

 

P.S. Adobe owns the TIFF specifications.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the feedback, everyone.

 

We are scanning old plans from finished projects. Once that's done, we'll throw out the hard copies. I've tried adjusting the DPI up and down. The software won't go below 150, but the resolution becomes unacceptably low at that level.

 

The hardware only prints in monochrome, so I assume it only scans in monochrome. What the software does with it, I'm not sure. Scantool is from a German outfit, the operation isn't intuitive, and the Help is not particularly helpful. There seem to be only two options for the type of scan--normal or gray--but that may apply to the display. I can't find a setting for color vs. gray scale vs. monochrome, in the hardware or the software.:ouch:

 

The old scanner will go to someone else. At the moment we still have it, although it's not hooked up. It's an Oce' with its own software. The catch is, you can't just run the software to find the settings, because it won't start unless the scanner is online. The scans from the old machine are monochrome, 400 DPI, TIFF with CCITT Group 4 compression. The huge scans from the new machine are monochrome, 600 DPI, TIFF with no compression (those were the default settings).

 

Eventually we will scan directly to PDF, but until I can resolve this size issue, there's no point.

 

I'll keep experimenting with it.

 

Edit: The scanner/plotter is a Ricoh Aficio 240W, not a Lanier.

Edited by CyberAngel
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ricoh Aficio AF 240W Specifications

 

Resolution 600 x 600 dpi

Grayscales 256 levels

Grayscale Printing 2 levels

 

 

Clipped this from the Ricoh website. The 256 grayscale levels may be what's pumping your filesize up.

 

Do you have the users manual for it? If not a Google search will find a couple of places you can download it from.

 

You mentioned fiddling around with the dpi...it may be scanning it at 600 but printing at a lower res.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The hardware only prints in monochrome, so I assume it only scans in monochrome.

 

From what I can tell here, they talk about grayscale scanning - which is probably 8-bit, as opposed to 1-bit monochrome. Can you scan a small (A-Size) sheet and upload it here or post online somewhere?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I actually took a class in image compression. I had to drop out. This is not my area of expertise.

 

Yes, there is a manual available for download. Everywhere I've found it, it costs money. I don't see why we should pay to get the instructions for a machine we've already bought. I'll have to take that up with the salesman.

 

Speaking of salesmen, he just called. The plotter server (it has to have its own server) has a dual-core CPU, which apparently is the wrong kind. They're bringing out a replacement later this week.

 

We have an image processing package called XnView. I use it because it can handle extremely large files. According to XnView, the 400DPI image is 12000 pixels (obviously, it's a 30 inch sheet) by 17215 pixels by 1 bit. That last part means monochrome. Therefore, the uncompressed image is 12000 times 17215 pixels, divided by 1 pixel per bit times 8 bits per byte times 1024 bytes per kilobyte times 1024 kilobytes per megabyte. That comes to 24.9MB. Compressed, it's 5.4MB. A similar drawing at 600DPI, uncompressed, comes to 56.8MB, which is approximately what I got before.

 

Hmm, TIFF isn't an allowed upload type.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just to follow up, the new scans are definitely monochrome. XnView has a properties window I had not noticed before, and it confirms that all the images are indeed black&white. What's confusing me is that the new scans and the old scans show the same general properties--paper is practically the same size, number of pixels is practically the same, resolution is the same. The files sizes should be the same.

 

Is it possible that a TIFF can store the raw data along with the compressed image? I have a hazy recollection to that effect. Now if I can find out how to switch that off....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

....the new scans and the old scans show the same general properties--paper is practically the same size, number of pixels is practically the same, resolution is the same. The files sizes should be the same.
I still would like to check them out, you can zip and email them to me if you want. rkmcswain_at_yahoo_dot_com
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here are two representative scans. One is named "old.tif" and one is "new.tif". Both are sized to 5x7 inches so that they'd make the 250KB limit. You'll notice that the old scan is crisper than the new one, but somehow the new one is about 8 times larger than the old one. Same size, same resolution.

 

ScanSample.zip

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What it *looks* like is that your new scan was scanned as grayscale, then converted to monochrome (not saying you did this, but the scanner software)

 

Look at the old scan, how everything is either solid black or nothing. On the new scan, areas that appear black are actually a series of dots.

 

The way I understand how tif compression works is that it takes a lot more space to save a checkerboard pattern than is does the same size area where half is black and half is white.

 

oldvsnew.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks, RKM. Something else to ask the salesman when/if he shows up. He's postponed his trip again, now it will be "next week". We have several other issues with the plotter (not relevant to this thread). If it were left up to me, I'd send the beast back.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks, RKM. Something else to ask the salesman when/if he shows up. He's postponed his trip again, now it will be "next week". We have several other issues with the plotter (not relevant to this thread). If it were left up to me, I'd send the beast back.

 

We have a similar problem with at least one of our small-format printer/scanners.

When CAD drawings are scanned on it, the lines are dithered (and upon close inspection, look like your "new.tif" image above).

This is not a problem as long as the same printer is used to make the copies/reprints.

 

However, when we print one of those scans on our Oce TDS860 (400dpi capability), everything looks fuzzy because it can't print that tight of a dithered pattern.

Our large format Oce scanner scans like your "old.tif" where geometry is a series of solid black areas, not a pattern of dots - and copies come out nice and crisp (not to mention, small file size)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I found you a user manual. All you have to do to "unlock" it is to rate the machine by clicking stars to answer a few questions. It's here: http://safemanuals.com/user-guide-instructions-owner-manual/RICOH/AFICIO%20240W-_E

 

or if you don't want to fool with that, send me your email addy in a PM and I will send it to you. Its 3.5Mb zipped, over 6 unzipped, in PDF.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Got it! As it turns out, there are settings for the scanner, for image processing, and for job processing. If you look at the scanner settings, the Help refers to Text/OCR Mode, Photo Mode, and Drawing Mode. The actual software calls it Character Mode instead of Text Mode.

 

We originally set the scanner to Drawing Mode because we were scanning, duh, drawings. That's where the grayscale came from (visible in the "new" scan above). When I set it to Character Mode, I got the same type of image as the "old" scan, as well as the manageable file sizes. Ta-daa!

 

If the sales people ever show up, they should have a manual for us. If not, I'll get the one in RKM's link. Thanks, folks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Got it! As it turns out, there are settings for the scanner, for image processing, and for job processing. If you look at the scanner settings, the Help refers to Text/OCR Mode, Photo Mode, and Drawing Mode. The actual software calls it Character Mode instead of Text Mode.

 

We originally set the scanner to Drawing Mode because we were scanning, duh, drawings. That's where the grayscale came from (visible in the "new" scan above). When I set it to Character Mode, I got the same type of image as the "old" scan, as well as the manageable file sizes. Ta-daa!

 

If the sales people ever show up, they should have a manual for us. If not, I'll get the one in RKM's link. Thanks, folks.

 

Congrats! Glad you figured it out.

 

RKM...if he asks for the manual, let me know and I'll send it to you, so you can send it to him....:lol::lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

RKM...if he asks for the manual' date=' let me know and I'll send it to you, so you can send it to him....[/quote']

 

Sorry about that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...