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  1. #11
    Super Member Bill Tillman's Avatar
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    Thanks all. I see that like most things in design/construction there's always lots to talk about. I'm going to be hacking through the processes over the next few days and have to make a presentation by mid next week to the decision makers. Wish me luck.

    BTW: I found this article and it was some reasonable and sound thinking about the decisions which have to be made when moving to BIM/Revit.
    It's deja vu, all over again.

  2. #12
    Super Member halam's Avatar
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    Somewhere in the beginning of the article..

    "To be clear, however, when the acronym BIM is used in this article, it is referring to Revit"
    Don't ask why?

    Good luck Bill!
    Modelling is done with two hands, 2d & 3d. Let it work together..
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  3. #13
    Luminous Being tzframpton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lrm View Post
    tzframpton, It appears I was not clear in my post (#5) regarding the strength of Revit vs. AutoCAD for building design and documentation. I wholeheartedly agree that Revit can be the superior product in many ways for AEC applications.

    What I was trying to express in the first paragraph of my post was the frustration and confusion I faced several years ago when I heard many raves for Revit but I had never used it myself. I wanted to know more about Revit but the Revit users I talked to couldn’t articulate what made it so good and how it was different from AutoCAD. The response in my post “well, AutoCAD can do that” was aimed at the non-Revit user who might be wondering how the products differ. The answer is more complex than the superficial comparison of the couple of features I was asking about. In no way was I trying to say that AutoCAD and Revit are equivalent!

    Your excellent post (#6) surely address some of the differences. Your example of the information for a fire protection pipe should help the AutoCAD user who is not familiar with Revit gain a feel for one way that the two products differ. As you know, Revit is hard-wired for building design whereas AutoCAD is a general purpose CAD system and as a result the Revit user has many built-in features for building design that are not available in AutoCAD.

    I found it useful to me that to understand and appreciate the uniqueness of Revit it was helpful to understand that unlike AutoCAD, Revit does not rely on a single 3D geometric model. The concept of multiple 2D plan views and 2D elevation views tied to a 3D model provide many benefits in ease-of-use and the creation of formal engineering drawings. Of course, the strong database capabilities are also key to Revit's strength. On the downside, I have found it much more challenging to create complex 3D geometry (I am an infrequent Revit user).

    My comment “well, AutoCAD can do that” was my way of provoking the reader to ask “How do these products differ?” and “Is Revit something I should consider?”. It is good to see experienced BIM users on this forum detail what they think are the issues and their experience with the technology.

    Lee
    You were clear in your post. I knew exactly what you were truly conveying, so don't think I was in any way singling this part out. I was merely giving an actual response whereas those colleagues of yours couldn't, just for the simple sake of continuing the conversations.

    I wonder, though, if those colleagues of yours were AutoCAD users? These days, I am beginning to find people who've only used Revit and not AutoCAD, so they really cannot provide a decent critique of AutoCAD while simultaneously defending Revit. It's kind of funny, actually, when these situations have arose. By that I mean you have the AutoCAD only user defending AutoCAD to the Revit only user defending Revit, but either side hasn't used the other program to have a real understanding. Two of my employees do not touch AutoCAD, nor will they be taught AutoCAD because our industry that we serve has moved beyond AutoCAD.

    And you are right: Revit is very specific. Even for certain markets it's specific for, I wouldn't say it's the best program. Things like complex geometry is not at all what Revit was ever intended to be used for and shouldn't be faulted for such obvious truths. Components that make up a building (walls, doors, windows, ceilings, lights, furniture, ducts, pipes, equipment, etc) do not need high level of complexity. Now, if you only stay in the conceptual massing environment, you can make as complex of a 3D model as anything, but you can't do much with that afterward. Complex 3D modeling should stay where it's intended, such as AutoCAD, SolidWorks, Inventor, Fusion, and so on. If you're an architectural firm and need the best solution on the market for commercial building design and modeling, Revit cannot be beat at this point in time. That'll all change someday when the free market develops something new and better and Revit will then become dethroned.

    Ultimately, the BIM industry and the platform BIM was built on, is absolutely better than anything AutoCAD can deliver for specific AEC markets and industries. It is in fact true and in my mind it is not open for debate or discussion. Find another program, then the debate and discussion can continue, but there is no debate or discussion with AutoCAD. And this is not based on what AutoCAD can do, it's what AutoCAD cannot do. No AutoCAD program allows multiple users in the same file at the same time, while delegating object-based borrowing, synced to a central model on a server that offices nationwide can connect to and the performance be as good as if it were all in a local area network on a gigabit connection in a single office location. Nor can AutoCAD offer the tools to create 3D building models with bidirectional documentation outputs in a natural and dynamic environment. It just can't. So I don't use it for any BIM processes, simple as that. If this topic moves outside of the realm and domain of the specific BIM processes, then Revit becomes null and void of any discussion whatsoever.

    Again, this is only my $0.02 and I'm just jumping in conservation is all.

    -TZ
    Tannar Z. Frampton ™ | Frampton & Associates, Inc.

  4. #14
    Super Moderator SLW210's Avatar
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    I was using AutoCAD for BIM way back in the '90s, doing conveyor construction, with a good set of LISPs as well as some VBA, using blocks with appropriate information included as attributes. After designing the conveyor layout, a few clicks and I had the quantities as well as the shop drawings with the bill of materials, including the structural steel details and connections. It was all 2D though, if we were using 3D back then it would have made the section views a lot easier to make. Most of my CAD work then was designing some of the one off components and redoing some of the standard components. To be honest, getting some good LISPs and other programs, depending on the field of work, is not at all cost prohibitive, even now, some of the verticals and third party add-ons available now for AutoCAD and verticals are pretty well priced, not to mention Inventor, Solidworks, etc.. Not to mention they all do shop drawings very well. I've used AutoCAD (since R10 on a regular basis), AutoCAD Mechanical, AutoCAD Mechanical Desktop, Inventor, Solidworks and ProE (now CREO). They all do shop drawing with information pretty good IMHO, when properly used.

    As per all of those articles, REVIT and other programs labeled as BIM aren't the only BIM game, BIM = Building (as constructing not "a building") Information (AutoCAD, Inventor, Solidworks, etc. all allow information to be included in the model) Modeling (a physical representation of an object which maintains general relationships between its constituent aspects). This is something many seem to get confused..

    Yes indeed, "for specific AEC markets and industries" like "commercial building design and modeling" and the collaboration abilities needed in these industries, Revit or similar software is becoming more and more a necessity, no doubt about that. The reason most other CAD users knock the Revit users is because most of them are unaware of Revit's limitations nor as mentioned the abilities of other software. And it is erroneous to call them BIM industries to begin with, all industries have use of BIM, not just commercial buildings.

    Which brings me to my question from the original post, How do you "create shop drawings in BIM compatible formats"? The few times I looked into using Revit products (been a few years), I could find no easy way to create the detailed shop drawings straight from Revit (though I recall Revit Structure may have done them), though it seems there are some third party add-ons that claim to do this. Though it appears the original question is going in the "other direction" to "create shop drawings in Revit compatible formats".

    I am curious as to how you do this.
    “A narrow mind and a fat head invariably come on the same person” Zig Zigler



  5. #15
    Luminous Being tzframpton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLW210 View Post
    The reason most other CAD users knock the Revit users is because most of them are unaware of Revit's limitations nor as mentioned the abilities of other software.
    This is exactly my point, though. It's the other side of the same coin. I know both programs, very well indeed, so I personally can have an opinion on both through actual experience. Take your sentence above, and I'll reword it this way: "The reason most Revit users knock the AutoCAD users is because most of them are unaware of AutoCAD's limitations nor as mentioned the abilities of other software."

    Exactly the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by SLW210 View Post
    Which brings me to my question from the original post, How do you "create shop drawings in BIM compatible formats"? The few times I looked into using Revit products (been a few years), I could find no easy way to create the detailed shop drawings straight from Revit (though I recall Revit Structure may have done them), though it seems there are some third party add-ons that claim to do this. Though it appears the original question is going in the "other direction" to "create shop drawings in Revit compatible formats".

    I am curious as to how you do this.
    I mean... what's Revit incapable of when it comes to shop drawings? I'm not sure I'm following your inquiry here. I create fabrication level shop drawings day in day out. I would propose that it's no better or worse than AutoCAD, so as long as we're talking about building-related shop drawings (in other words, no super complex modeling such as the detail parts of printer manufacturing or the inner components of a cell phone).

    In the event that AutoCAD by itself can't create things, you can always fall on a 3rd party add-on. Same with Revit, whatever it cannot do OOTB, 3rd party add-ons exist. Same thing or no?

    -TZ
    Tannar Z. Frampton ™ | Frampton & Associates, Inc.

  6. #16
    Super Moderator SLW210's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tzframpton View Post
    In the event that AutoCAD by itself can't create things, you can always fall on a 3rd party add-on. Same with Revit, whatever it cannot do OOTB, 3rd party add-ons exist. Same thing or no?
    Exactly my point, same thing. OOTB AutoCAD is capable of quite a lot on it's on, with verticals and many specific add-ons it can pretty much match up to many specific CAD platforms, including BIM and doesn't really need add-ons for most, the programing just makes it more automated. I do all kinds of work in just vanilla AutoCAD, as far as LISP I use mostly Al's Steel Mill occasionally when I need that sort of thing, other than that not much on any regular basis.

    Quote Originally Posted by tzframpton View Post
    I mean... what's Revit incapable of when it comes to shop drawings? I'm not sure I'm following your inquiry here. I create fabrication level shop drawings day in day out. I would propose that it's no better or worse than AutoCAD, so as long as we're talking about building-related shop drawings (in other words, no super complex modeling such as the detail parts of printer manufacturing or the inner components of a cell phone).
    -TZ
    I thought my question was just that, a question. How are you creating shop level fabrication drawings? More precisely I was inquiring as to the OP "draft the shop drawings in a BIM compatible format", it seems they were asking for shop level fabrication drawings to use in Revit, which seems backwards to me, I would think the process would start with a model then work towards a fabrication drawing. There's nothing more to the question, I seem to never get an answer to this question. I know several on some of the Revit forums a few years ago were using Inventor, Solidworks, etc. to make drawings for the shop.

    So, once again, how would you "draft the shop drawings in a BIM compatible format"?

    As to the my specific needs, sheet metal layouts and pipe cut templates would work nicely. I do see where Autodesk has the Fabrication tools for MEP and Revit(?), that might be workable.
    “A narrow mind and a fat head invariably come on the same person” Zig Zigler



  7. #17
    Luminous Being tzframpton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLW210 View Post
    So, once again, how would you "draft the shop drawings in a BIM compatible format"?
    I mean, you just... do it. Still not sure how you can't. I guess I'm missing a point here.

    Quote Originally Posted by SLW210 View Post
    As to the my specific needs, sheet metal layouts and pipe cut templates would work nicely. I do see where Autodesk has the Fabrication tools for MEP and Revit(?), that might be workable.
    Pipe cut templates is not possible with Revit, and sheet metal layouts is not possible if you mean "unfolding" flat patterns. All of this would have to be 3rd party, or done in another program.

    -TZ
    Tannar Z. Frampton ™ | Frampton & Associates, Inc.

  8. #18
    Super Member halam's Avatar
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    I am just a average 'bim expert', but I know "drawing" and "bim" should not be used in the same sentence.
    It's not available, not in format or in any concept of bim. Weak point in the principle of it.. 'Model' should be read explicit and the closest thing to bim format is IFC.
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