Question for those in construction or engineering

[Viper04]

Our company has changed over the years due to me. I came in and the drawings were a bit&% to work with. Layers, blocks ect were different from project to project and we are a manufacturing company so a plate should be a plate. I came in a re-structured the entire Design Manual, new layers (standards for Pre-Cast Fabrication, Mechanical, Architectural, Strucutural & Steel Detailing) huge library of Dynamic Blocks, Dimensions styels ect.

This has taken me 5 years so far and still working on it. But it has made working/changing viewing other drafters in our office drawings from project they all "almost" look identical on Screen and Printed.

The process of getting clients drawings and completed re-drawing them does take us extra time. But due to the nature of our business when we are drawing on the same project for over one month with over 100+ 24"x36" pages it becomes easier to handle.

I'm trying to "force" clients to use our standards when drawing up some prelim drawings by sending them our SCRIPT files for layers and Dim styles, fonts ect. This has worked for the most part but some architectecs don't like Engineers telling them what to do..

3D drawings are another story and they are harder to maintain especially on how stuff gets drawn in 3D. Some CAD techs don't understand that yea it may look ok printed but bring the CAD drawing into 3DS Max and it looks like garbage. But anyways thats anothe topic all by itself.

I say we use AutoCAD to 1/10th of its actuall potential and I think we are much higher than a mojority of companies we deal with.

My next step is to configire the AutoCAD Standards Tool check to get throught our library and fix anything thats out of wack. But thats next years project.


Just my 2 cents.

[Teeds]

you left architecture out of the mix ...

The answer to your first question is an unqualified no. Nobody wants the answer to be no, but it is because ...

speed
quality
price

pick any two.

I have completed 10 story buildings in just a few weeks when pushed. I can do it because I grew up on the boards and have been drafting for over 40 years. I also learned from the best, the back office draftsmen and women that worked for one of the premier engineering firms in the region. Before I even start drafting, the entire building is designed in my head in 3d.

Now that I am a self employed architect I have found the following to be true. Clients are generally dumb as a box of rocks about construction and long ago screwed the process down economically to a point that everyone involved in the process has had to toss quality out the window to even break even, never mind make money.

Back to architecture ... drafting is not part of the architectural profession. I may get flamed for saying so, but it is true. No one learns drafting (except rudimentary level skill) in architectural school and they do not learn drafting in the profession. Everyone is an "architect" or dreaming of being one. They are drawing because they have been told to do so, not because they care about the detail on their screen. They are already dreaming of the swoopy detail on the roof, the wall, the site plan ... name the latest doo dah that is the detail de jour.

• There is only a handful of people in architecture that realize that more than one line weight is important.
• There is only a handful of people in the field that believe drawings mean anything except as a defense exhibit, if sued.

If I sound bitter, it is likely because I am. Fear of risk has lead many in the architectural profession to abdicate control, in the name of reducing risk, to other members of the design/construction team. If they understood the relationship between risk (actually lack thereof) and quality, they might rethink their position.

Normally, it is the general contractors that have stepped up and filled the control void. That being said, I don’t know of any that here in the Metromess are even scratching the surface of CAD, or any other means of electronic documentation/communication for that matter. Many use cell phones, but even text messaging and remote email are slow in coming to the mix.

Dang, I sound cranky and I guess I am. I love the construction profession and it has been the only job I have had, except for a few short stints elsewhere because of school, since I turned 14, which was a long ago.

[uddfl]

you left architecture out of the mix ...

The answer to your first question is an unqualified no. Nobody wants the answer to be no, but it is because ...

speed
quality
price

pick any two.

Now that I am a self employed architect I have found the following to be true. Clients are generally dumb as a box of rocks about construction and long ago screwed the process down economically to a point that everyone involved in the process has had to toss quality out the window to even break even, never mind make money.

Back to architecture ... drafting is not part of the architectural profession. I may get flamed for saying so, but it is true. No one learns drafting (except rudimentary level skill) in architectural school and they do not learn drafting in the profession. Everyone is an "architect" or dreaming of being one. They are drawing because they have been told to do so, not because they care about the detail on their screen. They are already dreaming of the swoopy detail on the roof, the wall, the site plan ... name the latest doo dah that is the detail de jour.

• There is only a handful of people in architecture that realize that more than one line weight is important.
• There is only a handful of people in the field that believe drawings mean anything except as a defense exhibit, if sued.

If I sound bitter, it is likely because I am. Fear of risk has lead many in the architectural profession to abdicate control, in the name of reducing risk, to other members of the design/construction team. If they understood the relationship between risk (actually lack thereof) and quality, they might rethink their position.

Normally, it is the general contractors that have stepped up and filled the control void. That being said, I don’t know of any that here in the Metromess are even scratching the surface of CAD, or any other means of electronic documentation/communication for that matter. Many use cell phones, but even text messaging and remote email are slow in coming to the mix.

Quoted For Truth.

You, Sir, should post more often.

Architecture is a profession which has commited a slow but steady suicide. Designers who disregard construction methods, builders who disregard drawings, and drawings that disregard accuracy, all of the above occurring most often due to goals such as 'get the job out the door ASAP' and 'avoid pissing off the client' -- self-destruction methods created from within our profession.

[LifeoRiley0]

Quoted For Truth.

You, Sir, should post more often.

Architecture is a profession which has commited a slow but steady suicide. Designers who disregard construction methods, builders who disregard drawings, and drawings that disregard accuracy, all of the above occurring most often due to goals such as 'get the job out the door ASAP' and 'avoid pissing off the client' -- self-destruction methods created from within our profession.

You guys do it to yourselves.
Architects need to tell clients NO more often! As in NO we can't give you a 6 story building with any room for mechanical and a 70' height restriction!
That's all right...the subs will bail you out in the end

[uddfl]

You guys do it to yourselves.
Architects need to tell clients NO more often! As in NO we can't give you a 6 story building with any room for mechanical and a 70' height restriction!
That's all right...the subs will bail you out in the end

Exactly what I was trying to convey.

[Teeds]

Quoted For Truth.

You, Sir, should post more often.

Architecture is a profession which has commited a slow but steady suicide. Designers who disregard construction methods, builders who disregard drawings, and drawings that disregard accuracy, all of the above occurring most often due to goals such as 'get the job out the door ASAP' and 'avoid pissing off the client' -- self-destruction methods created from within our profession.

Thanks! Where is the blushing smilie?

I love the profession and hate what it has become in the last 25~30 years.

I learned more about architecture while working in the construction field than I ever learned in the office. I got 6 months of credit for 8 years in construction towards architectural registration.

I did not get registered early enough (1986) to be grandfathered by NCARB. Kids that still have snotty noses have NCARB after their name and I do not because I do not have enough "education". The answer by NCARB was to go back to school. At this point in my career, I would eat most of the profs in the school that is most accessible to me because they are the same people that were there when I graduated. They know less now then they did then, primarily because I have been in the profession for 40 years since graduation and they are still teaching. Nothing heightens education of a person like competition within the marketplace.

A partner in a major firm came in very excited one morning. He had just seen his first pier poured ... OMG, this is a man that was in his late 50s and claimed to know architecture! I have taken the layout tapes myself and relocated piers myself within two hours of receiving the change in configuration from the owner. I called the super and stopped him from drilling until I arrived. He was amazed that I knew what I was doing.

Architecture is slowly being paralyzed by the adversity to risk so prevalent within the profession.

Everyone makes mistakes, it is part of life. The measure of an architect, engineer, construction manager, anyone actually, is how they manage their response once they are faced with the realization that they have made a mistake. I have managed risk by embracing it. I smother it with action, with attention. In my world the term avoidance does not exist.

Many people that I know in construction say that I am the best architect that they have ever worked with. I don't say that to flatter myself. I have worked hard to make sure that I understand how water leaks into buildings, how tall walls can be without causing problems and how far steel, wood and concrete can span before it "looks" wrong, never mind the fact that the engineers say it will stand. Some of the largest mistakes of the profession are related more to the aesthetics of a building than they are the engineering.

The confusing mish-mash that often passes for architecture these days makes me want to puke. Styles are casually blended together until the sight of a Colonial Tuscan Ranch is not even jarring to many and more mind boggling in that many will seek out the “designer”!

I will close with an often quoted line of mine ...

For most people, taste is related to what they had for breakfast!

[Teeds]

You guys do it to yourselves.
Architects need to tell clients NO more often! As in NO we can't give you a 6 story building with any room for mechanical and a 70' height restriction!
That's all right...the subs will bail you out in the end

I've said no. It has cost me a lot of money ... a lot. I walked away from a $1M architectural fee because the client thought the design architect was telling him the truth and I wasn't. The architect that replaced us almost went bankrupt trying to finish the project.

On another project, I sat in a meeting with a group represented an "unnamed firm" wanting 4 story office building ready to move into in 6 months ... yup 6 months. My boss, the construction manager, et al were afraid to say the truth when they asked me if it could be done.

I said that yes we could do it. I said it would take 4 months for design and that would leave 2 months for construction. The look on my bosses face was priceless and the CM almost fainted.

Then I asked the broker and his "buddy" ... likely the client ... if anyone had thought to tell the client that the task was not possible? There was only silence in the room when I left.

Finally I left corporate architecture, took a cut in pay and regained my smile.

I would say no more often, but there is alway some moron in the profession willing to say yes. There is very little work out there at the moment as most know, so I don't say no, if at all possible.

BTW ... I have fired a number of clients. That is the most important task I can ever undertake.

[Sickguy]

Do you feel that the construction or engineering companies you work for are utilizing CAD fully?

if no, then why do you feel this is so?

no. i have been in the concrete industry for about 7 years now, and if i didnt just go ahead and start doing things in 3D or giving the drawings my own personal look and feel, then most companies are content with crap as long as its functional. engineers and construction guys are not generally visual guys. work for an architect and you will be dealing with some picky people.

[Ritch7]

no, too many reasons to list really it must differ but everything comes into it. price, time, trained personel, practicability etc

eg if a company used cad for the fullest then they would have every single person with a licence and have an office filled with cad operators lol

[Sickguy]

no, too many reasons to list really it must differ but everything comes into it. price, time, trained personel, practicability etc

eg if a company used cad for the fullest then they would have every single person with a licence and have an office filled with cad operators lol

in my experience, very few architects and engineers know how to use ACAD very well. most of them just believe there is a "draw building" command, or something. they view the computer as a magic machine that miraculously produces the drawings they need. they dont seem to think much more goes into the actuall process than just a few clicks.
i started out as a low man on the totum pole, but as a draftsman through different companies over the years, i have realized that we sort of carry the keys to the castle.

this place would not know what to do if i just up and left one day, because i know everything on the buildings, even more than the architect in some cases.