Xrefs in Title block lost

Yesterday I came here to try to find out how to either create a new title block or edit one that I am already using that has xrefs. I had no experience with editing xrefs before, and I guess I did not get enough info before starting. Here's what happened:

I opened a title block that I use that was created by Shawn (at our company) that goes on drawings for client approval. My drawings almost never go to clients because I am the R&D department, and I create drawings only for the owner's approval, and so they remain internal documents. The block for client approval only has two lines for drawing revisions, and my drawings often have six to eight revisions, and so I wanted to expand that part of the legend and get rid of extraneous information. Also, I wanted to format the block to fit on 11x17" paper instead of the 8½x11" used by production, and put the legend vertically on the right hand side of the paper instead of at the top and bottom, which is very wasteful of space, especially since everything is printed landscape.

So... I saved the block under a new name and even in a different drive and directory, for my own use. I exploded the block so that I could edit the size, which I did by scaling it to get to 16" wide. I tried to stretch the height down to 10¼", but was unable to do that, but I did manage to rescale it by specifying Y scale when inserting the block. I then used the REFEDIT command so that I could edit the block, and I got about 3/4 of the way through with editing it the way I want it. When I tried to save the drawing, I kept getting error messages saying that I could not do this while REFEDIT was still open, and so I had to close that. When I did, I told it to save the changes, thinking I was safe because I was editing on a different drive, but when I opened one of my old drawings on the original drive, I found that my old block reflected the changes I had made on the other drive:shock: !

Now I want to get my old block back, so that it can be used on the archived drawings that I have. I assume that it will have to be recreated (which I think Shawn can do), but I would like to fix this myself and also be able to have a new block that meets my needs. I went through a tutorial for creating a title block, but I think I need to understand attributes and xrefs better before I do anything else, and I'm afraid this will be a lengthy learning process. Are there any short cuts to help solve this?

Thanks for reading this - I'm sorry it is so long, but I'll check my email for responses. I'm in California, on Pacific Time.

Ok LarsT, you've opened a can of worms here because you're talking about exploding blocks and suddenly you're into XREF editing Huh???)... Doesn't appear to make sense but I think that where you're using the term Block, you actually mean XREF (or not)???

Let's look at each component as I see towards achieving a solution. Firstly, is Shawn still using his Ttle Blocks OK or have your updates been imported into his drawings? If you are really talking blocks, try the following - if they're XREFs, it's a different ballgame.

Are you able to open one of his old files with his title Block on? If you can, you can use the WBLOCK command, choose Block as the Source in the Dialog box, select the appropriate blockname and tell it where to put it - no insertion point or other variables involved. This will overwrite the 'damaged' DWG with the old one.

That's the first stage - let's work this out before we attack the rest - come back with the results first...

P.S. I'm in Australia, so I won't align with your time until about the same time as you submitted this query in the first place...

Thanks! I got it back. I opened one of Shawn's blocks and did the WBLOCK command, but I couldn't select Block as the Source in the Dialog box because I didn't recognize any of the names in the selection, and I didn't want to do any more damage. Instead I saved it as a file, and so I can use that block to replace the blocks that are damaged. However, I will have to replace the blocks one by one, and the new block I created does not have the information I wanted. I'm still unsure how to edit the block - it does contain xrefs, and I've never created those myself, as far as I know.

Thanks for your help - it's a good start for me. By the way, I could not overwrite because it is write protected, although that was not evident when I looked at the file in Windows Explorer. How can I find out what xrefs are in the file?

My fear now is that since I have copied one of Shawn's files, if I edit that file, it will change his own files. This is what happened to me - I copied a file that I had been using as a block, and after I edited it (as described yesterday), it changed my original file, and I don't want that to happen again.

OK, I think the best solution here is a bit of online training. Let's firstly define Blocks and XREFs so that can work out the best solution yourself.

In its most simpest form, a Block is a drawing within a drawing. When you insert a block (or make one in the current drawing), the Objects are applied to the Current Drawing only. If you change the source drawing, the Block doesn't change in the Current Drawing (or any that have used the Block). If you edit the Block in the current drawing, it won't alter the Source Drawing either - there is no Link!

An XREF is a Source file that is similar to a Block that is linked into the Current (and perhaps many other) Drawings. As it is a linked DWG file, if you change the Source file (whether external or within the Current Drawing), Every instance of the XREF in every drawing will change accordingly. That's where the dangers of XREFs come into it.

So, let's take a scenario - The Company Logo within the Title Block is an XREF. If the Company Logo changes, you can change the Source file and every drawing will update to contain the New Logo. The Negative side of this is when the Boss comes in and wants a plot of the drawing you did 6 months ago to take to court. Oops , it now has the new logo and the version control is gone...

There are ways to overcome this problem by plotting everything you do to a PDF which you keep a copy of, but that's a different story.

Here's where an XREF is king. You use Architectural drawings as a background for your drawings and as such you XREF it in (at this point a Block or an XREF wouldn't really make a difference). As you get new Drawings from the Architect all the time, it would be nice if they automatically updated. Ah, now we're talking XREFs... Simply overwrite the old Architectural on the Storage with the new Arch Drawing and like magic, next time you open your drawing (or reload the XREF), the new Architectural shows up.

Hope that gives you a good idea on how it should be done - you really need to look at your specific application. As for the "how can I tell what XREFs are in the drawing" query, the quickest and easiest way is to type XR at the command prompt and this will give you a Dialogue box which will show which XREFs there are and where they're located.

As for the "how can I tell what XREFs are in the drawing" query, the quickest and easiest way is to type XR at the command prompt and this will give you a Dialogue box which will show which XREFs there are and where they're located.

This pretty much solves my problem, I think. With this advice, I was able to find the xrefs so that I can edit them. Fortunately, I also found an old *.bak file that I can easily edit to get me back to where I was before. Then my next project will be to create a new title block from scratch (which I had already started), but I have to make sure that it does not have any of the old xrefs. I saw a tutorial on how to create xrefs, and so I'll have to go over that again before I jump back in.

The IT people here know nothing about AutoCAD, but I told them that I thought I could get an answer here, and you proved me right! I'm really grateful for you quick help!!

Don't you just hate when the IT people can't help you out (even when it's just the basics). Go back and tell them you were helped by a dumb Aussie:P

Come back any time - there are a lot of good heads attached to this Forum and they're all willing to provide you with benefits of their experience. We're all in a unique community in that way

I don't really expect IT people to understand AutoCAD, but I did let them know that I was helped by a guy in Oz! They're very grateful to you as well!!

I'm handicapped here in that I've never had formal AutoCAD training - I had to teach myself, and I started with Generic CAD back in 1992. Then I upgraded to AutoCAD LT 97 when that came out, but I still had to use the manuals to figure out how to use the programs. I was never taught the proper way to start a new drawing, and I never used paper space until this year - before that I was printing from model space, since that's all there ever was in Generic CAD. So I'm new at inserting blocks into paper space, and I have no experience with attributes, which is what I will try to learn next. In the meantime, I finished my title block for 11x17" paper, and it works fine for me, although I have to edit the text in the block after it is inserted. I think I know how to create attributes, but do I need to make the drawing into a block when I'm finished with it or can I leave it as a dwg file? I feel comfortable enough now to experiment with it, since I won't be able to do any more damage beyond my control. The xrefs scare me, and so I'll avoid them for now; however, I was able to fix one that I had messed up, and so they can't be that bad.

Join the Club - I've conducted formal training, but I've never been formally trained. Back in 1988 when I started AutoCAD there were very few who could teach it and when they could, they charged like wounded bulls and I just couldn't afford it then (no such thing as a forum either because the Internet didn't even exist)!!! At times, I see it as a blessing as it has allowed me to reach beyond the norm and do things that may not neccessarily be by the book. I classify it as going to the 'School of hard knocks'.

Don't feel that you've missed out on anything - experiment, treat like a hobby and you want to pull it apart, try it out and see if you can supercharge it. Far too many users out there are all too happy to just draw Lines, Circles and Arcs, Move, Copy and Erase them and that's it. Those people will be treading the same path in 10 years time... If you take an interest and try a new feature every now and then (and try to pull it apart), you'll progress and be able to determine what will and what won't work for you.

To answer the query regarding Attributes, yes, you will need to turn it into a Block as Attributes only work from within a Block. That being said, let us define what a Block really is in simple terms. Basically, it is a Drawing within a drawing. So, to make up your Title Block, you just produce a drawing in Model Space with the Text, Logos and Attributes and save it away somewhere. Note that the attributes won't function as you would anticipate at this point. When you insert the Title Block drawing into the one you're working on the Attributes will then behave as you would expect.

I did manage to get my title block made with attributes, and I seem to be learning by trial and error, but that way I don't forget, I guess. I'm sure you can relate to that, but sometimes I run into some mysteries that way.

I found it interesting that I could have a date field and have AutoCAD automatically put the current date in for me, but I then discovered that I was stuck with that date, and so I unformatted it.

I also learned that if you double click in a blank area while you are in paper space in a layout, you will end up in model space, which was a bit disturbing. I further learned that I could fill in data for the attributes in the block by double clicking on the data or typing ddedit. However, neither would work if I got transferred inadvertently into model space, and so I'm going to have to be careful about that.

I seem to be working out some of the quirks on my own, but at least I got over the hurdle of making the block with attributes, and so I'm happy about that. Now that I've done it, it seems very simple and easy. Thanks for your encouragement!!

BTW, it took me a while to figure out how much wounded bulls would charge for AutoCAD lessons!

Oops, forgot about the Australianisms... Sounds like you're proceeding and finding lots of what can be disturbing but also very handy. Double clicking in the viewport will, as you say, take you into what I call 'Modelspace through Layout Sace' (as it actually describes it perfectly). If you find it handy (and as you proceed, there are times you will), one warning - you can't pan or zoom or you will change the view on the Layout. To overcome this, you can lock the Viewport and it will retain the scale and move the layout space with it - unusual, but makes sense.

Also, if you double click on the viewport frame it will carry out what is called Maximize Viewport. This actually takes it back to modelspace without the viewport frame or the Title Block or any objects on Layout space. Doing it accidentally can be very disconcerting for the first time if you don't know what it is up to. Check out the help regarding Maximize Viewport as I can't remember how it was attacked in 2005. This can clean it up and allow you to pan and work as if in Modelspace. If you try to get several drawings from 1 via the use of Layers, this is the perfect solution as you don't need to go back to Modelspace, alter the layers to match what you need and then turn them all back on before going back to the Layout. That's what I do and it works a charm...

As for your Date and using fields - you would find that does work well. You only needed to carry out a regenall and it should have updated. I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing, but wouldn't you want to retain the Drawing Date? I know I don't want the drawing date to alter once I issue it and the Ammendments are the record of changes from that point.

If it is Fields that you have discovered - there's a whole new ballgame to discover towards Automation - that's your next discovery trip. These can actually be inserted within attriutes and text.

Hey Alin, this is really useful info.

So I've got a one-up question on this.

I've worked at firms where we use standard titleblocks xreffed into the drawing. Since someone else drew those, I don't remember how they were built but I assume it was with attdef.

Now I'm setting up a titleblock with Sheet Number, Title, etc set up as attributes.

When I xref this titleblock into the drawing, the border, lines, and regular text show up just fine. But all of the attributes are invisible.

I also unsuccessfully tried using the 'field' command, though I don't understand that very well.

Do you have advice on inserting an xref which contains attributes?

Hey there BikeGuy...

Hmm. a bit of a strange occurence, but let's get a couple of baits out there to fish for exactly what the problem is and what you're up to:

1. Before you XREF the drawing into the destination, does it display as you would expect (correct values, etc.)

2. Do you already have one of these title Blocks in the destination (final) drawing you're xreffing it into?

3. What Layer do you have the XREF (original file) attributes in (i.e. within the Block Editor)?

3. What layer have you 'inserted' the XREF into the destination drawing on?

4. What happens if you were to insert the XREF as a Block rather than an XREF?

Come back with these and Dr. AlinOz may be able to determine the illness and prescribe the right drugs (the purple pills are the best, I believe)

Okay, seek and ye shall find the answers:

1. Before you XREF the drawing into the destination, does it display as you would expect (correct values, etc.)

In the xref file (titleblock) the values all show up fine.

2. Do you already have one of these title Blocks in the destination (final) drawing you're xreffing it into?

This doesn't seem to affect the drawing. I've had the same issue when first inserting the xreffed titleblock, and also when I change and update an existing file.

3. What Layer do you have the XREF (original file) attributes in (i.e. within the Block Editor)?

This also doesn't affect the problem. Generally I keep xrefs on the '0' layer, but this has also happened when the attribute text is on the 'A-ANO' layer

3. What layer have you 'inserted' the XREF into the destination drawing on?

I generally insert the xref into a layer like 'T-BORDER' and I've also tried inserting into the '0' layer

4. What happens if you were to insert the XREF as a Block rather than an XREF?.

Hmm, I hadn't tried that.

Wow, it works:shock:

This does solve the problem, but it's still puzzling that wherever I've worked before, the titleblock was inserted as an xref.

Thanks and any other thoughts are welcome

tmp-xref-question.dwg

tmp-xref-title.dwg

Okay, seek and ye shall find the answers:

1. Before you XREF the drawing into the destination, does it display as you would expect (correct values, etc.)

In the xref file (titleblock) the values all show up fine.

2. Do you already have one of these title Blocks in the destination (final) drawing you're xreffing it into?

This doesn't seem to affect the drawing. I've had the same issue when first inserting the xreffed titleblock, and also when I change and update an existing file.

3. What Layer do you have the XREF (original file) attributes in (i.e. within the Block Editor)?

This also doesn't affect the problem. Generally I keep xrefs on the '0' layer, but this has also happened when the attribute text is on the 'A-ANO' layer

3. What layer have you 'inserted' the XREF into the destination drawing on?

I generally insert the xref into a layer like 'T-BORDER' and I've also tried inserting into the '0' layer

4. What happens if you were to insert the XREF as a Block rather than an XREF?

Hmm, I hadn't tried that.

Wow, it works:shock:

This does solve the problem, but it's still puzzling that wherever I've worked before, the titleblock was inserted as an xref.

When I inserted the titleblock as a block into my arch dwgs, I get the error message:

"The application has detected a mixed version of AEC objects participating in this session.

Newer AEC objects will be disallowed from participating in this session."

Now I'm all about participation and I think that for Autocad to deny any AEC objects from participating just shows poor social skills. :-)

The block still shows up okay, but the reason that xrefs are better for this kind of thing than blocks is because it's faster to update xrefs than blocks.