Suggested changes to this forum

[Se7en]

@CADTutor, I apologize for this post (I wont do it again). I try not to talk about other forums while on a forum (it is BAD netiquette).

@everyone else
At theSwamp there is not any intimidation; we attempt to teach more then just bounce code for answers. The idea is that we never look down upon anyone. If an inexperienced person posted to the `show your stuff' forum we wouldnt think anything of it because we all know that you have to start somewhere and who really cares if its not up to `Bob's' standard (and this next statement may get me in trouble) and, to be honest, who's place is it to say that, that code isnt good enough for someone to be proud of.

About the titles, I really dont like the attitudes of some people (not here or there just on other sites) and how they think they are better then others. I guess it is the softer side of me because if i sense an attitude from a so-called guru i will go out of my way to make him/her look foolish.

@The Buzzard
Yes there was a claim to that notion. Several times. I know it was innocent but the `separation' is still there. The whole reason im posting in this thread is because i already know where it will lead (I'm trying to help). For example: How will code be deemed good enough to be added to the Archive forum? Who will make that decision? I imagine it will be a nomination from some member in the form of: "Hey, this is cool. Can we add this to the Archive?" which is great but not really fair to both the inexperienced and experienced because certain criteria could/will be established or a lack of understanding of what was offered.

To explain that `Lack of understanding' comment: Someone (a long time ago) commented on a snip-it of my code but they seemingly missed the whole point about my example. I was trying to show the solution in terms of LOGIC and they were trying to look at the CODE (they saw a fancy trick when it really was a simple logistic offering).

Please note:
1. I know you used the words "experienced" and "inexperienced" and i do appreciate that.
2. I'm not trying to stir the pot, I'm honestly just trying to help (offer solid, good, constructive opinions).

[CADTutor]

I value the views of all members here and your comments are important.

I think there may be a basic misunderstanding in the argument as this thread has developed. At no time has our/my intention been to infer that any sort of hierarchy should be used to determine the worth of contributions to the forum or as a basis for forum organisation. As at the Swamp, this is a place to learn and beginners are valued just as much as more experienced members.

The basic issue is that the AutoLISP forum has become very popular and very busy and it seems sensible to attempt to organise it better in order to make it easier to use, easier to find things, easier for beginners to get answers to their questions and easier for those who want to publish their applications to do so in order to get comment and fruitful discussion.

I don't believe we need an "us and them" attitude to achieve this, just some plain logic. The fact is that someone, somewhere has to organise these things. Like most forums, we have a number of moderators who look after the place. We don't believe these people are better than anyone else, better AutoCAD users or any kind of an elite, they just help out and, frankly, without them, this place would be chaos.

At theSwamp there is not any intimidation; we attempt to teach more then just bounce code for answers. The idea is that we never look down upon anyone...

If I though any member of this forum was subject to intimidation or that any member looked down on any other, I would be very angry. If you have any evidence of this happening, please PM the details to me.

The points you have made are important but don't get us any closer to a resolution. Perhaps you could suggest a method of organisation that you believe will work and be entirely egalitarian.

[Se7en]

Two ideas:

How about the simplest solution like, just make an open repository for people to post what they like. There can be rules like:

o revise the first post for any revisions to the program, concept, etc.
o intact (fully working) programs shall be only attachments, inline code shall be reserved for conversations.
o program archived shall contain, source code, pseudo code, documentation, revision log, licence, etc.
...

but this will allow everyone to post no matter what they think their level is or even if most may not find it profound.

OR

What about just removing the need for two threads (one here and one in the archive section). The archives can still be locked down and only mod's can post. What im thinking is simple; i imagine that a few people are timid about having their code posted along with a critique thread where the general public can ask questions or pick it apart. This way if a user has a question about an archive app the user is forced to create a thread like

sub: (archive: bob's lisp) formula validation
topic: bob where did you get that formula? Ive always used...

Now the second method will result in more (duplicate) threads in the discussion area but that is where vBulletin's similar threads feature can come into play. Well you get my point I think.

***
I am only thinking back to when i was excited to post my newest creation. My first `look at this code' was pitiful (well maybe not my first, prolly my last *lol*) but I also wasn't afraid to post it amongst people like Kenny Ramage, Dave Stein, R. Robert Bell, etc. because of this simple fact.

[The Buzzard]

I value the views of all members here and your comments are important.

I think there may be a basic misunderstanding in the argument as this thread has developed. At no time has our/my intention been to infer that any sort of hierarchy should be used to determine the worth of contributions to the forum or as a basis for forum organisation. As at the Swamp, this is a place to learn and beginners are valued just as much as more experienced members.

The basic issue is that the AutoLISP forum has become very popular and very busy and it seems sensible to attempt to organise it better in order to make it easier to use, easier to find things, easier for beginners to get answers to their questions and easier for those who want to publish their applications to do so in order to get comment and fruitful discussion.

I don't believe we need an "us and them" attitude to achieve this, just some plain logic. The fact is that someone, somewhere has to organise these things. Like most forums, we have a number of moderators who look after the place. We don't believe these people are better than anyone else, better AutoCAD users or any kind of an elite, they just help out and, frankly, without them, this place would be chaos.



If I though any member of this forum was subject to intimidation or that any member looked down on any other, I would be very angry. If you have any evidence of this happening, please PM the details to me.

The points you have made are important but don't get us any closer to a resolution. Perhaps you could suggest a method of organisation that you believe will work and be entirely egalitarian.

Two ideas:

How about the simplest solution like, just make an open repository for people to post what they like. There can be rules like:

o revise the first post for any revisions to the program, concept, etc.
o intact (fully working) programs shall be only attachments, inline code shall be reserved for conversations.
o program archived shall contain, source code, pseudo code, documentation, revision log, licence, etc.
...

but this will allow everyone to post no matter what they think their level is or even if most may not find it profound.

OR

What about just removing the need for two threads (one here and one in the archive section). The archives can still be locked down and only mod's can post. What im thinking is simple; i imagine that a few people are timid about having their code posted along with a critique thread where the general public can ask questions or pick it apart. This way if a user has a question about an archive app the user is forced to create a thread like

sub: (archive: bob's lisp) formula validation
topic: bob where did you get that formula? Ive always used...

Now the second method will result in more (duplicate) threads in the discussion area but that is where vBulletin's similar threads feature can come into play. Well you get my point I think.

***
I am only thinking back to when i was excited to post my newest creation. My first `look at this code' was pitiful (well maybe not my first, prolly my last *lol*) but I also wasn't afraid to post it amongst people like Kenny Ramage, Dave Stein, R. Robert Bell, etc. because of this simple fact.

Please do not misinterpret me. When I refer to intimidating, I am refering to the quality of the coding from people at the Swamp verses the average poster here. It is two different worlds apart. I would say it is unfair to make these comparisons, But many use the Swamp as some sort of example. I like the way this forum is setup and I also like the diversity here. It gives this forum some sort of balance. One time I wanted to post a code in the archive and was turned down. I recall a feeling of unfairness then, But as time went on I began to understand the reason. I do not feel it is needed to have another forum that essentially does the same thing as the forum we have now. Thats my point. I believe your point is to a have a special place to post codes regardless of expertise, But the forum we have been using all this time has been doing that, Although I guess it not special enough to some. This forum will change regardless of my point verses yours or anyone else for that matter. All I am doing is debating the issue. I do not like having my words taken out of context.

I did not bring up the Swamp, You and others have.

[Kerry Brown]

When I refer to intimidating, I am refering to the quality of the coding from people at the Swamp verses the average poster here. It is two different worlds apart.

That is pure unadulterated drivel. TheSwamp is NOT some holy grail of programming .. it's a pere to peer learning forum where anyone is welcome.



Just walk away John.

[CADTutor]

Guys, I think this thread may have run its course, which is why I am closing it (please don't beat me over the head with calls of "censorship!").

Ironically, this debate seems to have emerged from a state of mutual agreement - not sure how that happened. Ultimately, both The Swamp and CADTutor are based on the same ideals. As Kerry states, they are both self-help communities that encourage peer-to-peer debate and support. That's not to say they are the same, they're not and some may have a preference for one or for the other. That doesn't make one right and the other wrong - just different.

Some reorganisation of the AutoCAD Customization forums has already taken place during the debate with a new dedicated section to the forum and a splitting off of some topic categories. It's already looking more ordered but I will consider further changes if that seems necessary.

The last point to be made is that this debate has arisen as a result of a massive increase in interest in AutoCAD programming techniques. That should be a cause for celebration. I don't think I've seen such creativity either here at CADTutor or over at The Swamp for a long time - that's a big "thumbs up" for everyone involved.