Stairway head room

I am drafting a set of plans for a small camp. For whatever reason (cost), the client did not want to go through an architect and took it upon themselves to hand draw some plans on graph paper. These are amateur drawings and the client requested that I convert them to a set of working construction plans. Building codes are lenient here in Maine, US and don't require an architect or engineer, plus it is a relatively simple plan so I decided to take the job. I am a professional, albeit new, drafter and have completed several similar projects successfully in the past.

The project is a small camp with 9' ceilings on the first floor. Everything seemed pretty straight forward, but as I began the drawing I found that there was not enough room to fit certain things. For example, a set of straight stairs that goes from the "breezeway" to the second floor lacks head room. What I thought might work is placing the header of the stairs in the "breezeway" to give the necessary headroom. I have attached some very rough drawings to illustrate what I mean. Please disregard the washer/dryer space problems and other issues at this time. I am focusing solely on the stairway at the moment.

Do you think this stairway configuration will work or do the stairs need to be moved further into the main house?

Thanks for any suggstions.

camp-Layout1.pdf

camp-Layout2.pdf

Around here (Maryland) the minimum Finished headroom for a stair is 6'-8" measured vertically from the edge of a nosing to the lowest part of the finished ceiling, above the stair. That includes allowing for drywall, carpet, and padding. Wait, is this an exterior stair? I don't remember if they are differently spec'ed. All my exterior stairs have been open above, porches, decks and the like.

Unfortunately those engineered joists are going to make it a little more tricky than a truckload of 2x10's to frame the header cut you will need up there, but it can be done. If you are using ply and 2x4 "I" beam joists they are as easy as solid lumber to frame out, unlike those open web floor trusses that have to be engineered and prefabbed to the 1/16" for every opening and cantelever in the floor.

Maybe you could slide the stair in a bit more, say at least one tread width, closer to the right end of the bath, but leaving room for door trim and light switches so they don't overhang the stair. The light switches need to be "on" the landing. This will make the laundry even tighter, but if you can get 6'-6" out of it in there, nobody will whack their head on it but Shaq. My main HVAC trunk is only 6'-3" from the floor in my laundry, but it is more or less in a basement and eveyone walks around down there ducked over anyhow.

Since it is only a camp, you may be able to get away with sticking the stair out there in the breezeway, but it will look a little clunky and someone will eventually park a 4x4 on it even if it's not a driveway.

Maybe you could make a bit of a landing and turn the stair 90 deg at the laundry so it lands on the ground coming at the viewer. Straight stairs are easier to carry a queen sized matress up but they are far easier to fit into a 10,000 sq ft McMansion than a 1000 sq ft camp cabin.

Thanks for the reply Dana. It's 6'8" around here too, but sometimes we can get away w/ a little less, especially on a camp.

They are using I-beams and as you say they're very easy to work with.

It's probably not crystal clear from the interior elevation but if you look at the 1st floor plan you can see that I can not slide the stairs anymore because to do so would mean moving the first floor bedroom door and wall to the right. This would, in turn, take space from the kitchen, which is already as small as we want it. I'm trying to keep 10" treads and risers under 7-3/4". The stairway will require 16 risers.

It should work as I have it, but the transition from the breeze way to the main house directly in the stairway will be a little awkward. However, I see no other solution. To make it more difficult the client also wants to fit a washer, dryer, hot water heater, and a furnace under the stairs. This may be possible with a stackable washer/dryer and water heater/furnace combo, but I still need to iron out the details. He may need to move the mechanicals to the garage, but we'll see.

I guess my biggest concern is how to finish the transition between the breezeway and main house. We could leave that section of the breeze way open, sort of like a short section of cathedral ceiling, or we could build a short sloping section. I'm not sure yet.

If you or anyone else has any other suggestions or comments please let me know.

Thanks.

Are the stairs already as steep as is allowed?

Can you raise the whole upper floor by a say a foot ($$'s) or would that result in too many stairs in a single flight?

Are the stairs already as steep as is allowed?

Can you raise the whole upper floor by a say a foot ($$'s) or would that result in too many stairs in a single flight?

Yeah, the minimum tread is 10" and the maximum tread height is 7-3/4". I know some builders get away with steeper, but for a main stairway I would like to stick with these dimensions.

Moving to 10' ceilings is an interesting idea. The client specified 9', but the cost between 9' and 10' would probably not be considerable because even increments usually work best in construction anyway. It would elongate the stairs but I could possibly keep the washer/dryer wall in the same spot. However, I usually like to keep a wall directly under the top of the stairs for ease of construction.

It's something to thinks about anyway.

Thanks. Please keep the suggestions coming, it really helps me to get different perspectives.

I always thought that the tread/riser magic number was 17. That means if you have a tread width of 10" then your riser height would have to be 7" not the 7 3/4" you keep mentioning.

Do the stairs have to go straight up? Could they be constructed such that there is a landing then the stairs turn? That's how it is in my 103 year old house and we have nine foot ceilings.

I always thought that the tread/riser magic number was 17. That means if you have a tread width of 10" then your riser height would have to be 7" not the 7 3/4" you keep mentioning.

 

Do the stairs have to go straight up? Could they be constructed such that there is a landing then the stairs turn? That's how it is in my 103 year old house and we have nine foot ceilings.

You are right, 17" (actually 17-1/2") is a good number to shoot for to give the most comfortable stairs, but you also have to keep a minimum of a 10" tread and a maximum of 7-3/4" riser to comply with codes in my area. As long as the sum is in the ball park of 17-1/2" the stairs are usually pretty comfortable. If I went to a smaller riser I would have to add another step which would take up more space.

A set of straight stairs would be better because they take up less space (no landing), and they are easier to maneuver furniture up and down them (as mentioned by Dana). However, sometimes a turn is necessary. I'll try to play around with the layout a little. Thanks for the suggestions.

I sent the preliminary drawings to the client and the builder so they'll probably have some ideas, too. Thanks everyone and please keep the suggestions coming.

Our stairs are four feet wide and the space under the landing is used for storage of seasonal items.

Could the stairs be moved to the exterior of the building? They could be constructed with a roof above them.

Your client put you into a difficult place making you fix their concept. I hope your compensation matches your time and effort.

Why not switch the laundry and mechanical ? The washer and dryer don't need big headroom.

The second floor central area also has an odd little long closet between the bedrooms. Eliminate that and rework the door positions on the side by side bedrooms and you just found more space. If it's storage they want, make the garage a foot or two wider, offcenter the garage door, and make a wall of closets.

Increasing the 1st floor ceiling height another foot will just make things worse. I'd go the other way. The stair will have to be 2 treads longer and you can't add that to the bottom, can you? That won't help in the laundry. There may be a code limit to how many treads you can have between landings. Check that out.

Here's something to think about. There is no such thing as 9' sheetrock, paneling sheet goods, plywood, or 2x4's. I've only seen sheetrock in 4' increments, but I have been told it comes in 2' increments, so at 9' you will have to cut EVERY sheet of wall material at least once and cut a huge chunk off each stud. Odd numbered (feet) ceiling heights are the most wastful to build. I bet that 12" adds a couple thousand bucks to the building cost of this place.

I can't figure out why the client might want 9' ceilings in 'just a camp', does he have a pet bull moose?

I'd drop the ceiling to 8'-1", shorten the stair by 2 treads and be done with at least one issue. (maybe).

Turn the 1st floor tub around. NO pipes in the exterior wall, please, at least not in Maine.

Our stairs are four feet wide and the space under the landing is used for storage of seasonal items.

 

Could the stairs be moved to the exterior of the building? They could be constructed with a roof above them.

Moving them to the outside is not really an option. The second floor doesn't have walls; it's tucked under a 12/12 roof, so I don't know where I'd put it without changing the look of the exterior. I thought about putting it on the opposite end of the house, but there are some windows and doors there that can not be compromised. I can't think of where else to put them.

Your client put you into a difficult place making you fix their concept. I hope your compensation matches your time and effort.

 

Why not switch the laundry and mechanical ? The washer and dryer don't need big headroom.

 

The second floor central area also has an odd little long closet between the bedrooms. Eliminate that and rework the door positions on the side by side bedrooms and you just found more space. If it's storage they want, make the garage a foot or two wider, offcenter the garage door, and make a wall of closets.

I decided to charger on hourly basis on this project and I'm glad I did.

The washer and dryer may not need a lot of headroom but the door to access them would need to be 6'8". Unless under the stairs was left open.

The second floor hasn't been completely thought out yet and will likely change. Thanks for the suggestions though.

Increasing the 1st floor ceiling height another foot will just make things worse. I'd go the other way. The stair will have to be 2 treads longer and you can't add that to the bottom, can you? That won't help in the laundry. There may be a code limit to how many treads you can have between landings. Check that out.

 

Here's something to think about. There is no such thing as 9' sheetrock, paneling sheet goods, plywood, or 2x4's. I've only seen sheetrock in 4' increments, but I have been told it comes in 2' increments, so at 9' you will have to cut EVERY sheet of wall material at least once and cut a huge chunk off each stud. Odd numbered (feet) ceiling heights are the most wastful to build. I bet that 12" adds a couple thousand bucks to the building cost of this place.

 

I can't figure out why the client might want 9' ceilings in 'just a camp', does he have a pet bull moose?

 

I'd drop the ceiling to 8'-1", shorten the stair by 2 treads and be done with at least one issue. (maybe).

 

Turn the 1st floor tub around. NO pipes in the exterior wall, please, at least not in Maine.

For some reason I get a lot of requests for 9' ceilings. That extra foot is such a waste. At least go to 10' and keep the increments even.

I hear what you're saying about pipes on the outside walls, but when they're well insulated there's no problem.

Thanks for the posts everyone. I'm still working through the issues and I am starting to think I should just come up with a completely new design. I'll wait to see what the client and builder have to say.

For some reason I get a lot of requests for 9' ceilings. That extra foot is such a waste. At least go to 10' and keep the increments even.

 

I hear what you're saying about pipes on the outside walls, but when they're well insulated there's no problem.

 

Thanks for the posts everyone. I'm still working through the issues and I am starting to think I should just come up with a completely new design. I'll wait to see what the client and builder have to say.

Okeydokey. Keep us posted.

Thanks for the replies everyone. I ended up just lengthening the building by 2' to accommodate the stairs. The client originally asked for 34' but the extra 2' simplified the plan and allowed a little extra space throughout. The extra space allowed me enough room to move the washer and dryer into the bathroom. Now only the combo water/space heater will need to be under the stairs.

Also, Dana, I turned the tub around as you suggested to keep the pipes on the inside walls. In this case there was absolutely no reason to keep them on the outside walls.

I sent the plans to the builder and client five days ago and have yet to hear back from them. So hopefully that means everyone is happy.

Again thanks everyone.

I have two follow up questions for you.

What was the % difference charge for a normally bid set of drawings vs hourly charge you ended up asking for ? Fu-neh how you became the designer for a project where the owner didn't want to pay for one. I occasionally get into trouble "seeing" what I think are easy design solutions get out of hand/snowball because of odd little requests (which in your case was a 9' high ceiling), thereby eating up the agreed to bid.

And the question I didn't think to ask was if the breezeway was a true breezeway - open to the elements on the two sides ? If it is, how's anybody going to go between floors safely if there is a bear roaming around outside in the pitchdark of night ? What you don't see..grrrr, snort, chomp.

I have two follow up questions for you.

 

What was the % difference charge for a normally bid set of drawings vs hourly charge you ended up asking for ? Fu-neh how you became the designer for a project where the owner didn't want to pay for one. I occasionally get into trouble "seeing" what I think are easy design solutions get out of hand/snowball because of odd little requests (which in your case was a 9' high ceiling), thereby eating up the agreed to bid.

 

And the question I didn't think to ask was if the breezeway was a true breezeway - open to the elements on the two sides ? If it is, how's anybody going to go between floors safely if there is a bear roaming around outside in the pitchdark of night ? What you don't see..grrrr, snort, chomp.

LOL. No, I suppose it is not truly a breezeway at all. The term I should have used is foyer. Sorry for the confusion.

Hourly vs a bid: percentage wise they probably would have saved a little (maybe 10%) with a bid, but, in this case, I did not give them an option. I usually do a bid on the first set of drawings and then charge hourly for changes, but this time the client had a first draft of their "vision" done on graph paper. I wasn't entirely sure of what would work and what wouldn't so opted for an hourly rate.

I'm not sure if the client intended on working from their graph paper drawings or not, but it was clear to the builder (whom I have worked with before) that they needed a set of professional drawings. I don't think they were averse to a drafter so much as an architect or engineer, primarily for cost reasons. Obviously a drafter is much more inexpensive, and in this case, the client felt the additional costs were not necessary for the small camp.

I ended up just lengthening the building by 2' to accommodate the stairs. The client originally asked for 34' but the extra 2' simplified the plan and allowed a little extra space throughout. The extra space allowed me enough room to move the washer and dryer into the bathroom. Now only the combo water/space heater will need to be under the stairs.

Again thanks everyone.

This is thinking outside of the box. Brilliant.

This is thinking outside of the box. Brilliant.

Sometimes the simplest solution is the best.

Just remember, the amount of stairwell headroom is inversely proportional to how many and how vile the curses you hear will be!