Autodesk New Policy - spate of India

Hello every body

I do not know if this is the correct place for this post. I do not find any sub forum for qestions like this. I am just sharing my thoughts (rather worries) here.

Recently Autodesk has announced new pricing policy from the 1st of February 2013. From that date any upgrade - even from the previous version- would be 70 percent of the cost of the software. Autodesk is forcing to go for subscription. In India (where Autodesk products are unimaginably expensive - even at the special Indian price), I do not know how many like me - who runs a SOHO private practice with only 5 staff - and who is bent on using legal, licensed softwares only - would continuously be able to afford the recurring expenditure on subscriptions every year.

So many of us have made hue & cry regarding the prices of Autodesk products here in India - only in vain.

If the Autodesk products became affordable enough to Indian conditions, even though the money made by Autodesk would be smaller (than from other countries), but it will have a great many number of buyers, thereby enormously bringing down the unauthorised use of software. Or probably it would be making much more money in selling to great many numbers at a much lower cost than selling a few at high prices.

This "take it or leave it - we command our prices" policy makes us (in India) to think about aleternative CAD software. (Of course there are other lower priced alternatives like Vectorworks, etc.) The trouble is, it has to be a sort of a clone to AutoCAD. Otherwise it becomes impractical to get used to totally new software and it becomes literally impossible to train each new staff with a totally different CAD software. Of course there are a number of clones available which are quite affordable - but sadly none are as stable as AutoCAD - even for 2D drafting one has to take quite some effort with these clones to finish a project successfully. No AutoCAD clone can come even near to even AutoCAD LT. So the lowest riced CAD here has to be inevitably AutoCAD LT.

I sort of overheard that in China, Autodesk is selling its products at a very, very, low price. So why not in India also?

It is no secret that India has one of the highest unauthorized users of Autodesk products - it is said.

So why is not Autodesk encouraging small users (SOHO) like me who are bent in using Licensed Softwares by giving us their product at affordable prices which should be in context with Indian affordability.

For instance, 3ds Max is about 3500 USD . A professional visualizer in U.S. charges about 3000 USD to 7000 USD per project. So he is able plough back the investment in almost one project.

Here in India, this price means about Rupees 200000 (two hundred thousand rupees). A professional visualizer here charges about Rupees 6000 per project. So it takes about 33 projects for him get back the cost of software itself.

So in what way even the special pricing for some Autodesk products really help us Indians here? It is still unaffordable.

Will Autodesk really care for small people in India? If not is there an alternative? (It seems only huge Multi National companies here can afford this - or very huge AEC firms can afford this).

During a recent Autodesk Survey in which I participated, it is evident that Autodesk is on its way not to sell licenses perpetually and instead start renting the software. Actually, in India, this will have a chain reaction of expenses - like upgrading the OS every frequently and also replacing computers frequently (because one will be forced to use the latest version - which is not so in India. I still use AutoCAD LT 2009 4 copies plus one copy LT 2013 Plus one BDS Premium 2013. I gave up upgrading 4 copies of LT 2009 because I could not afford it)

So with these kind of situation, I wonder what would be the status of Indian Autodesk users.

Again, even the existing situation has lead to this here. Even though Autodesk products are very expensive and affordable only by the MNCs and the like or Giant AEC companies here who reap in dollars, however, usage of the products by most of the others is not uncommon - it is said they simply use unauthorized software. Now here comes the bitter part of it in that for such of those small people who do pay for the licensed software, they stand to lose lot of money because his /her competitor uses unauthorized software and the amount not

spent is a huge profit (because of the very huge price of the product - and of course multiple copies have to be had to run an office - so savings from expensive software amounts to extra earnings). So these people could quote lower fees than us legitimate users. And we really stand to lose. The clients themselves are not bothered whether somebody is using legitimate software or not. If they could get the services at a lower price they only go for it. They wouldn't pay higher just because somebody is paying for the software.

Whatever I have said here is not a sudden outbreak from something just happened. This has come out from years of my observations here in India. Some people seem to even think and claim that it is their birth right to use unauthorized software.

I do have some friends of mine who exactly have the same mindset and attitude that I have.

Always use legitimate software. But since recently we are pushed to a conclusion that we, the legitimate users would wither away to dust and the illegitimate users would be shining, thriving and would have high standards of life (instead of buying software, they simply buy more hardware and increase staff and increase their turnover - and whereas we legitimate people get forced to stick to older hardware and spend the money on software upgrading, and then not have enough money to add computers & staff with additional licenses for software.

Unless Autodesk takes a lenient view on their prices in India, we, the legitimate users are going to disappear from their respective fields!!

If this is not the forum to discuss this, then let the moderators please transfer this to an appropriate sub-forum. My humble request is, make this known to others and to Autodesk.

With best regards

PRSS

- it is said they simply use unauthorized software. Now here comes the bitter part of it in that for such of those small people who do pay for the licensed software, they stand to lose lot of money because his /her competitor uses unauthorized software and the amount not

spent is a huge profit (because of the very huge price of the product - and of course multiple copies have to be had to run an office - so savings from expensive software amounts to extra earnings). So these people could quote lower fees than us legitimate users. And we really stand to lose. The clients themselves are not bothered whether somebody is using legitimate software or not......

http://www.bsa.org/country.aspx?sc_lang=en

How does the BSA work in India?

I have heard of competitors here put their competition out of business with a single report of piracy.

There is always the AutoCAD-clone option which includes such products as...

Bricscad

IntelliCAD

NanoCAD

ZwCAD

progeCAD

They cost substantially less and both read and write to the DWG file format.

If a company is works only in 2D then there is the absolutely free Draftsight program by dessault systemes makers of Solidworks so you know it is reputable. Send AutoDesk a message by moving to one of the above products and make sure when you do that you tell them why you felt you had no other choice.

I have partially tested Intellicad & Karelcad and they are so close to Autocad a few minutes and your on your way the most significant benefit is they support Lisp out of the box and intellicad VBA, also Karelcad has a macro writer that writes .net code which is very interesting on its own.

Download a trial version the cost of the pro versions say $500 US

There are many over the counter add ons for these other programs which will reduce your ongoing time costs even more. I know we converted or architectural add on to work with Intellicad with minimal fuss.

Any LT seats can be replaced with DraftSight for $0.

Thanks every body for their replies. Regarding AutoCAD clones I already have progeCAD for all my computers. I bought last year progeCAD 2011 and this seemed to work fine even though it was exrtemely slow in saving files - I knew about this slowness of saving of files with any IntelliCAD product. I was able to put it to use after almost 2 weeks of intense research and reported a host of problems which progeSOFT did solve - except 2 or 3. After this 2D working drawings - even large ones could be done though zooming and panning were slow. In fact I praised about this (it has an unbelievable low price in India - it is not the International price - so it is something we - the like minded people really welcomed) very much in several CAD forums. I also helped them in finding work-arounds to unresolved problems. Then I upgraded to their latest version 2013 (they simply skipped 2012 and called it 2013) - I even did some beta testing of their product prior to their release of their final version.

This version is having IntelliCAD 7 core and the latest ODA dwg. Even while beta testing, I had to report an unbelievable number of problems. The final version launched and later with two update patches,it still has a host of display problems and crashes very often and the display problem cripples working on this software. One thing about progeSOFT is their very strong hard to believe support continuously to their customers. You can't beat anybody in this. But unfortunately with this latest version, they are still at a loss to solve this. Several of my friends bought progeCAD 2011 last year for every copy of AutoCAD LT we had. So with the latest version giving so much trouble, almost every one of us have once again fallen back to AutoCAD LT.

Regarding Draftsight, I tested it out last year itself. Though workable - it has quite a few incompatibilities with AutoCAD files ( which we cannot afford to have - though it is free) and their later version (not the latest) had display problems in hatches. Also the software is quite slow to work - though it saved files faster than 2011. I have not tested their latest Draftsight (surely it should have changed) and I shall do so. In fact IMHO if progeSOFT solved the problems (which they seem to be struggling to - and are also seem to be waiting for solutions from the IntelliCAD Consortium), then this would definitely a very good replacement to AutoCAD LT. (with version 2011 their problem solving really needed special appreciation - their development team worked with indefatigable assiduity - probably the problems with the present version have to be solved by the ITC - but we cannot be waiting forever).

By posting these, I am only pleading to Autodesk that they bring down their prices sufficiently low in context with the Indian economy.

The link given by JD Mather is really very interesting. About the BSA. I do not know if it exists in India. But here there is something called NAASCOM - which does something of this sort. But in India it has somehow become a habit of not reporting anything against anybody - not only in softwares, but in other walks of life also!!! Only thing we do is keep grumbling!!

Regarding Free Draftsight, I do not know people who are recommending this have really worked on larger 2D working drawings on a fairly lengthy session - say 3 hours or so. I may be wrong - the previous versions did not give me any hope - shall certainly check out the latest ones and I shall definitely report it here for others' benefits also (to such of those like me struggling to pay Autodesk). In the meanwhile I think I should start saving for fresh 5 user license pack for AutoCAD LT 2014 (yet to be released!). Hope Autodesk sees these forum postings and does something about the pricing! I have posted the same topic in Autodesk Discussion Groups also from where I am yet to get replies.

With best regards

PRSS

I've used Draftsight for almost a year and have no problems with it being slow. I'd look at your hardware specs for the source of the problem.

AutoDesk is very much like Microsoft and exhibits a "take it or leave it" attitude so the hope that AutoDesk will read postings like yours and respond in what you hope will be a positive manner is very much an illusion on your part. Bottom line: it ain't going to happen. So either suck it up and pay the ever-increasing prices or abandon ship for another program. That's the hash reality you face. Sorry to be so blunt.

I've used Draftsight for almost a year and have no problems with it being slow. I'd look at your hardware specs for the source of the problem.

 

I would have to agree. Your profile says WinXP on a core I3 with an integrated video card. A copy of Win7 and a $50 nvidia video card might improve your CAD performance. That is if you have a system that can take the new card. Not sure if a card will help LT but moving to a 64 bit OS and using a dedicated card might help performance.

It sounds like someone tried to cut corners (opting for an integrated graphics chip) to save a few dollars which resulted in a loss of productivity that in the end cost the company more than they saved in the first place. That was pretty dumb if you ask me.

Hello ReMark

I now perfectly agree with what you say on the attitude of Autodesk. This was my last cry. As for Draftsight I shall definitely give one more go. As far as graphics cards go, most of us Indians here use AutoCAD on systems which have only the basic Integrated Intel Graphics. AutoCAD - whether full version or LT runs quite good for our purposes. In fact I have a total of 6 systems - 3 have nvidia graphics card and the rest have Intel's integrated card. The performance is not visibly better on those which do have the nvidia cards. (please note that I installed the cards for SketchUP - the are GeForce - not Quadro which AutoCAD requires). As for cutting corners, it was I who did it! Because I am the owner of my Architectural practice and I have a fairly good knowledge in hardware and operating systems. I am still sticking to XP (in fact my OS licenses are for Win 7 with downgrade option to XP) because I have some other softwares and freewares which would not run in Win 7 even in compatibility modes. As for the other softwares, I could not upgrade because I could not afford. As for freeware, they have not put up upgrades!

It is to be noted that I have put up the same post in AUGI & in Autodesk Discussion Groups also. So far absolutely no replies. I thought that some one from Autodesk would see the post in either AUGI or in Autodesk Discussion Groups (moderated by Autodesk personnel - I am sure).

Only CADTutor Forum members have been kind enough to reply. I am thankfull to all of you. So with Autodesk "it aint ging to happen" - I now digest the fact!!

With best regards

PRSS

Hello ReMark

 

I now perfectly agree with what you say on the attitude of Autodesk. This was my last cry. As for Draftsight I shall definitely give one more go.

 

It is to be noted that I have put up the same post in AUGI & in Autodesk Discussion Groups also. So far absolutely no replies. I thought that some one from Autodesk would see the post in either AUGI or in Autodesk Discussion Groups (moderated by Autodesk personnel - I am sure).

Only CADTutor Forum members have been kind enough to reply. I am thankfull to all of you. So with Autodesk "it aint ging to happen" - I now digest the fact!!

With best regards

PRSS

No point in holding out false hope, don't hold your breath for an Autodesk response.

Of course they saw it, but short of offering some relief, which they won't do, anything they do post will only

make them look bad, so they have nothing to gain from publicly addressing your grievances.

AutoDesk is in the business to make money not to necessarily make their customers happy. They will not change their pricing structure to make it easier (i.e. - cheaper) for the end user to upgrade. It is of no financial benefit for them to do so.

And we have to face the fact Autodesk could careless if we small time businesses feel off the earth and never touched another one of their products. They are looking at large corporate buyers and to sell ridiculous subscription fees.

And I too have tried all the other aforementioned software but continue to buy their products because its what I grew up using. Just last year I tested Solidworks and was dead set on switching over but I had a big job coming and couldnt afford the downtime in learning new software.

What software are you running under WinXP that will not run under Win7?

Are your computers hardware/software 32-bit or 64-bit? I'm guessing everything is 32-bit.

How much RAM is installed on a typical computer?

Are these desktops, laptops or a combination of the two?

The price hike starting Feb 1 applies to all of us, worldwide, except for markets Autodesk is trying to grab market share or just a foothold (China?).Autodesk is not a charity or an NGO with donated funds: as long as they are making money in your region there is no incentive to make less. Sorry, just basic Business/Market Realities, the middle-class is going away.

OK I was curious so I downloaded and installed LT 2013 to see if you could enable hardware acceleration and you can. So with this I would think you would gain some performance with a dedicated graphics card. Not to tell you your business but I have been building and spec'ing CAD machine since 1996 and I would never use an on-board card for CAD use. Shared memory between the system and the graphics is just too big of a bottle-neck in performance.

I also agree that AutoDesk needs to lower the cost of LT to about $600 USD but they won't

It is really very kind of you all to give me correct advice on Autodesk intentions and policies. I certainly agree that Autodesk is not a charity organisation! It was only a plea that I made! Now having realised the fact from my postings in AUGI as well as Autodesk Discussion Groups, I have no other way but to save up for Autodesk products.

I downloaded the latest Free Draftsight on my personal home laptop which is a DELL XPS laptop Core i 5 - with Windows 7 Professional 64 bit OS with 6 GB RAM, Nvidia GeForce GT 540M with 1 GB graphics memory. This latest version does not seem to have display problems. It works fine. But when you open even mid-sized files of working drawings, say 4 MB to 6 MB, even with this configuration of laptop, the zooming, panning, and moving of entities are visibly slow. So I do not know if this would be alright to continuously work on mid to large sized working drawings - this I have to check after installing on my staff's computer.

Kind attention ReMark: I am sticking to Windows XP because my AutoCAD LT 2009 (4 copies) which I never upgraded will not run in Windows 7. I do have one copy of LT 2013 on another machine and also one copy of Building Design Suite Premium 2013 on another machine which would run on Windows 7 but I do not wish to have multiple OS in my office. My office computers total to a number of only 6 (just SIX) including my own desktop which is still a core 2 duo and 4 GB RAM with Nvidia GeForce GT 9500. all others are Core i3 with 4 GB RAM (I know XP 32 bit recognises only 3 GB). 2 of them have Nvidia GeForce GT 440 with 1 GB RAM.

With these configurations, I am able to do all kind of works which I need to do very comfortably. Most of our file sizes are less than 15 MB (2D drawings - if they go beyond that we split the files into two). But it is a shame that I have put the Building Design Suite Premium 2013 on my senior staff machine which has the same configuration. Having paid up for the BDS 2013, I was not left with enough money to by something like the HP CAD workstation. From BDS, we are using AutoCAD 2013 full, 3ds Max Design and Revit. It is Revit - which we are under learning process - which is slow because of the lowly computer. Once we learn probably I would save up for a work station.

Again as for sticking to XP, we still run SketchUP version 6! which would not run in Win 7. Why version 6? Because some of the important plugins which we use do not work in windows 7 satisfactorily - it gives error messages. We do use SketchUP 8 (M3) version - the free one when ever we do not use the plugins. We also use the Free Kerkythea Rendering system to render from SketchUP - this I personally find - somehow it runs better on the XP. We also run GIMP Open source (something like Photoshop) - the previous version (not the latest one) which again runs better on XP. We are addicts to SketchUP for concept 3D & we do need those plugins.

Now you can see how many freware & open source free softwares we are running - not to mention Open Office .org also. It show the non affordability of proprietory softwares. As far as the other free wares go , it serves our needs very well - except for the Free DraftSight- even if it worked I would feel guilty of using a free software for professional use on day-to-day basis for all the time. And it would not be worth it to buy this knowing it is too slow.

As BDesign said, I also find Draftsight or any other clones kick the bucket when it came to large files.

Thanks for all your suggestions. You have been kind to me to give me all these info. Waiting for some more inputs from you all, then we shall close the thread! (Pendean said it very rightly).

With best regards

PRSS

I have the exact same laptop with 8GB of RAM and a 2GB graphics card (dedicated) and experience no problems with large files. What else are you running in the background?

There are a couple of workarounds for 32-bit systems which allow for more than 3GB of RAM.

You can use a program like Longbow to run 32-bit programs on a 64-bit computer.