Vanilla, Revit or MEP?

Hi there,

 

I've posted previously about this subject, but I wonder if things have progressed. I currently work in a small-firm creating documentation (construction/workshop) drawings for commercial mechanical services (HVAC).

 

Currently we work completely in 2D, we strip back 2D architectural floor plans, ceiling plans, electrical and plumbing. Then we draw in our HVAC layouts in 2d, generating sections and details as needed from scratch. Obviously this is quite a slow method as everything is in 2D and is essentially just line work.

 

Moving forward we want to upgrade to new software that enables the use of 3D, but we find ourselves at a bit of an impasse, if we should start learning Revit (which is apparently the future/past ten years...) or first utilise AutoCAD MEP and eventually move onto Revit when the software is more used in Industry/capable. Or should we just skip AutoCAD MEP and go straight to Revit MEP? Bare in mind we are still doing just fine using slightly tweaked Vanilla CAD, but we can all see the massive advantages of working with AEC/BIM and automated program features.

 

If anyone on here works in the same discipline (Mechanical Services Construction Documentation)/has had similar situation experience any input would be much appreciated! Apologies if this seems a bit muddled, it's a hard situation to try to express!

 

Thanks.

I think you have done a fine job of explaining your question.

No doubt there are plenty of forum members who can give you first hand feedback,

no doubt TZ, aka Stykface will have plenty of input for you on this particular topic, when he sees it.

 

Does seem like time for a change from the way you describe your SOP.

In my opinion stick with AutoCad. Revit has a few fanboys although that's it. They might make a bit of noise although that doesn't mean they represent the industry as a whole, particularly in Australia where AutoCad and its variants still dominate.

 

 

Edit: Let's stay professional guys

Edited October 10, 2013 by f700es
Unnecessary personal comments removed

Judging by your question, it seems you're thinking more into the future. Judging by that, I would say Revit as it is a 'smart' program and one that will utilise BIM effectively in the future.

 

But, at least in my line of work in the UK, Revit isn't exactly a dominating CAD program, with few Clients using it so it could be that Revit is yet to become more 'mainstream' so AutoCAD is still the dominating CAD program.

Judging by your question, it seems you're thinking more into the future. Judging by that, I would say Revit as it is a 'smart' program and one that will utilise BIM effectively in the future.

 

But, at least in my line of work in the UK, Revit isn't exactly a dominating CAD program, with few Clients using it so it could be that Revit is yet to become more 'mainstream' so AutoCAD is still the dominating CAD program.

 

Revit is a fad. In my experience Revit has a slight following in the architectural field (although AutoCad and its variants still dominate) although outside of that Revit is an outlier compared to other software programs. No one who works for a medium to large sized firm can reasonably disagree with that.

 

In the structural engineering field, Revit is a laughing joke compared to the other software packages.

Hi there,

 

I've posted previously about this subject, but I wonder if things have progressed. I currently work in a small-firm creating documentation (construction/workshop) drawings for commercial mechanical services (HVAC).

 

Currently we work completely in 2D, we strip back 2D architectural floor plans, ceiling plans, electrical and plumbing. Then we draw in our HVAC layouts in 2d, generating sections and details as needed from scratch. Obviously this is quite a slow method as everything is in 2D and is essentially just line work.

 

Moving forward we want to upgrade to new software that enables the use of 3D, but we find ourselves at a bit of an impasse, if we should start learning Revit (which is apparently the future/past ten years...) or first utilise AutoCAD MEP and eventually move onto Revit when the software is more used in Industry/capable. Or should we just skip AutoCAD MEP and go straight to Revit MEP? Bare in mind we are still doing just fine using slightly tweaked Vanilla CAD, but we can all see the massive advantages of working with AEC/BIM and automated program features.

 

If anyone on here works in the same discipline (Mechanical Services Construction Documentation)/has had similar situation experience any input would be much appreciated! Apologies if this seems a bit muddled, it's a hard situation to try to express!

 

Thanks.

Moving to AutoCAD MEP or Revit MEP won't necessarily make you faster... in fact it might make your output productivity hurt quite a bit, especially in the beginning as you are learning. It will, however, make you accurate in a much easier and more efficient manner, especially in your coordination review and alternative referencing views such as sections and/or elevations. It takes time to grasp AMEP or RMEP before one becomes efficient with either of these two programs. Fortunately for you, there are suite options available so you will get all of these programs and you can use them at your discretion. The main difference between vanilla AutoCAD versus AMEP and RMEP is the time spent in setting up the project. As for Revit, here are some questions that if you can answer yes to all of them, it'll help you decide if it's right for you:

 

1. Do you have the ability to get complete architectural Revit models from the GC or Engineer for at least 50% of the jobs you get?
   
2. Has a general contractor ever requested that you produce 3D BIM models for trade coordination before construction schedule starts?
   
3. Have you ever been asked to provide COBie compliant IFC information to your general contractor?
   
4. Will you have budgeted a certain amount of money for training and/or outside Revit consultant fees?
   

 

If you answered yes to all of the above, then Revit MEP will seriously need to be considered and quickly. If only partially yes, or no to all of them, then you're not in need of using Revit, however you still can most certainly use Revit. Using Revit with 2D architectural DWG files isn't really the best way of doing things. Anytime I receive 2D architectural DWG files, I use vanilla AutoCAD with my normal HVAC drafting methods and procedures that I've always done for the past 9 years.

 

Here is an example of what Revit is capable of:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4989089/North_Hills_RFI.pdf

 

The attached 4 page PDF is an RFI for a client of mine that I do sidework for. Well, the GC and engineer demanded fully coordinated shop drawings (no 3D model or Revit model was supplied). Since I'm proficient in all disciplines of Revit, I created the entire structural framing plan in about an hour, simply by reading the structural contract documents. Once that was in place, I made the entire HVAC layout you see in about two hours. Plan, and Sections were instantly generated after the model was in place (Plan view shows 2D DWG file for architectural as the underlay). No linework was drawn whatsoever in Plan or Sections. For me to have recreated all that linework in 2D, and manually coordinate and track the interference shown would not have taken 3 hours. No way, José - especially to that accuracy. The human mind is capable of a lot, but to reserve three dimensional geometry of an entire job is not the easiest task.

 

I will say this: if you are proficient at Revit MEP as a mechanical HVAC contractor, the day will come where it will pay off immensely. GC's and engineers love, and I mean love working with contractors that use and work in Revit, especially for as-built purposes. Imagine an engineer who receives an as-built, with all CFM and load information, product and manufacturer information scheduled, and fully coordinated. In the next phase, or in ten years when a remodel or a renovation is needed, that engineer can take your Revit model and be so ahead of the game it's not even funny.

 

AutoCAD MEP is an "in-between", but the awesome part of AutoCAD MEP is the content package that you get right out of the box (duct fittings, pipe fittings, flanges, valves, equipment, etc). It took all the intuitiveness it could from Revit and made the AutoCAD environment as close as it could possibly get. But, it's still AutoCAD, so you're stuck with Layers, XREF's, non-parametric modeling, non-collaborative central models, etc. AMEP is still a fantastic program and I still highly promote it. Once someone is efficient with AMEP, when you eventually move to Revit you'll be much more familiar with Revit since they're very similar in principle.

 

As for the negative comment, I'll address that statement in a hurry with all-due respect. It's easy to criticize any topic, and it's much more difficult to present reasonable facts for or against something. Revit is far from a "fad" that will somehow fade away. I work for a very large company (7th largest profitable engineering firm in the world) and our development staff is using Revit 2016 in beta with Autodesk. And not to mention I come from contracting. I actually hung duct for three years when I was 18-22yrs old. All I know is mechanical engineering, and I've been designing for 9 going on 10 years now, and have used AutoCAD, AutoCAD MEP and now Revit MEP and I can surely tell you that the Revit platform is here to stay. Nothing and I mean nothing beats good 'ol AutoCAD for drafting and linework, but in a specific industry you do have options. Revit is very different from AutoCAD, so be sure you're ready for it if you choose to use it. Literally, you must forget everything you know and love about AutoCAD to find it useful.

 

Hope these words help you some. Please post back with any more questions you may have and I'll gladly answer them best I can.

 

- Tannar

Edited October 10, 2013 by f700es
Removed un-needed comments

That's one h-e-double hockey stick of a response Tannar!

 

I work in a Civil environment and, although I don't use Revit in my day to day work we do have it as part of our Autodesk package and can certainly see the advantages of using Revit. As you've pointed out having a full 3D model would drastically cut down on drawing time by automagically generating sections etc.

 

I do however need to point out that very few of our clients have requested we use Revit (In fact, none as of yet, but once in a blue moon we receive files in Revit) so it appears at least in the UK that Revit isn't there yet. I don't know what it's like in other countries so please enlighten me on whether it's taking over AutoCAD in your area or if it's grounded still. Plus there are always lost of niggly changes that I don't think Revit would be able to address any easier; piling, excavations, batter slopes etc. which I acknowledge is not Revit's domain, but are factors I need to consider and with/work round if necessary.

 

This could be because however I do work for Temporary Works; it only covers ground works and items that are put up then taken down again; Tower Cranes, Scaffolding etc. We also deal with piling and ground works as a subset.

 

Because I don't do HVAC work it could be that what I've posted is of no bearing to you. Yay.

 

(This is probably my longest post to boot! )

That's one h-e-double hockey stick of a response Tannar!

 

I work in a Civil environment and, although I don't use Revit in my day to day work we do have it as part of our Autodesk package and can certainly see the advantages of using Revit.

 

I do however need to point out that very few of our clients have requested we use Revit (In fact, none as of yet, but once in a blue moon we receive files in Revit) so it appears at least in the UK that Revit isn't there yet. I don't know what it's like in other countries so please enlighten me on whether it's taking over AutoCAD in your area or if it's grounded still.

 

This could be because however I do work for Temporary Works; it only covers ground works and items that are put up then taken down again; Tower Cranes, Scaffolding etc. We also deal with piling and ground works as a subset.

Revit is not a program that is intended for civil engineering and designing. Revit would be the worst case platform to use since it's intended for the architectural, structural and MEP trades in the AEC industry.

 

CADadam and all others on this thread who might be skeptical about Revit usage... below is a link to a snapshot of our entire software utilization. Notice the % utilization between Revit and AutoCAD platforms and you might be surprised that Revit actually beats out AutoCAD, even though AutoCAD is heavily used still.

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4989089/FlexReport.htm

 

Again, hope this helps.

I thought that may have been the case Tannar, and I think that may be the point Organic could have been making. Depending on your line of work, Revit may not apply.

We have added 6 new buildings here on Campus in the last 4 years and everyone of them were drawn in revit. Ranging from 27,000 sf to 147,000 sf. So big to small for us.

In my opinion stick with AutoCad. Revit has a few fanboys although that's it. They might make a bit of noise although that doesn't mean they represent the industry as a whole, particularly in Australia where AutoCad and its variants still dominate.

 

Those who scream the loudest are not necessarily correct.

Some of the very first adopters of Revit were from AUS. Some of the best Revit users in the world are in AUS or NZ. This doesn’t mean that AutoCAD may still hold the majority of users in Australia. This is a more demographical thing. Every area of the globe has a different software base that the majority uses.

 

Revit is a fad. In my experience Revit has a slight following in the architectural field (although AutoCad and its variants still dominate) although outside of that Revit is an outlier compared to other software programs. No one who works for a medium to large sized firm can reasonably disagree with that.

 

In the structural engineering field, Revit is a laughing joke compared to the other software packages.

 

"fad

noun

1. an intense and widely shared enthusiasm for something, esp. one that is short-lived and without basis in the object's qualities; a craze."

 

Seeing how Revit has never been widely use and has been in use and with a growing population since 2000 I think the use of the word "fad" is an error on your part. Granted Revit is more driven by the Architecture and Construction industries. The tools for MEP and Structure were lacking in the beginning. In the last 5 years however the tools have been added to and improved every year. There are still some areas that are being improved by Autodesk but that’s what happened with AutoCAD as well. It takes time to refine the software to meet the users requirements.

 

If you are bashing specifically the analytical tools of Revit then you do not know much about structural engineering. This facet of Revit has always been overlooked because the software the engineers already have works for them and there is no benefit to switching to Revit. Revit has a fully capable analytical package imbedded in it, and if you need more you can export nativly to Robot for more complex calculations.

 

Hi there,

 

I've posted previously about this subject, but I wonder if things have progressed. I currently work in a small-firm creating documentation (construction/workshop) drawings for commercial mechanical services (HVAC).

 

Currently we work completely in 2D, we strip back 2D architectural floor plans, ceiling plans, electrical and plumbing. Then we draw in our HVAC layouts in 2d, generating sections and details as needed from scratch. Obviously this is quite a slow method as everything is in 2D and is essentially just line work.

 

Moving forward we want to upgrade to new software that enables the use of 3D, but we find ourselves at a bit of an impasse, if we should start learning Revit (which is apparently the future/past ten years...) or first utilise AutoCAD MEP and eventually move onto Revit when the software is more used in Industry/capable. Or should we just skip AutoCAD MEP and go straight to Revit MEP? Bare in mind we are still doing just fine using slightly tweaked Vanilla CAD, but we can all see the massive advantages of working with AEC/BIM and automated program features.

 

If anyone on here works in the same discipline (Mechanical Services Construction Documentation)/has had similar situation experience any input would be much appreciated! Apologies if this seems a bit muddled, it's a hard situation to try to express!

 

Thanks.

 

I won’t go in to deep here, Tannar made a stellar post covering most if not all the topics

AutoCAD MEP would most likely be the easiest step for you and your firm. I will not sugar coat it, Revit is a lot of work… to get setup. Once setup it can offer you a lot of benefits. Revit is just like any other software that was ever imported into the work environment. AutoCAD had huge hurdles to get over when it came out too. Set goals and you will stay on track with your software deployment. Your best bet is to have realistic expectations of whatever you move forward with. Hire an expert… and challenge the expert to make sure they are an expert. LOL

 

If you have more specific questions regarding Revit, http://www.revitforum.org is your best bet for getting answers from the best Revit minds in the business.

Judging from what I've read it does appear that MEP is your best bet; a middle ground, if you will.

Is there any truth to what some users are saying about Revit being too slow?

What do you mean?

 

Process too slow? The method of doing some tasks is too slow?

Is there any truth to what some users are saying about Revit being too slow?

 

Oh you need a good machine to run it, no argument there. It has gotten better over the years. Revit Arch is ok here on my older dual-core Xeon and Quadro based machine.

Is there any truth to what some users are saying about Revit being too slow?

There's a lag to Revit, because it's database driven. But that's really in the modeling aspects of Revit. Open a drafting view and it is better. However, make no mistake, AutoCAD's environment is very "fast" and I still love it to this day. Zooming/Panning, drawing linework, etc. are much faster and smoother in AutoCAD.

 

One must understand that AutoCAD is a drafting tool first, and Revit is not.

 

Judging from what I've read it does appear that MEP is your best bet; a middle ground, if you will.

I can agree with this, because the learning curve is not as vast. AutoCAD MEP is still AutoCAD, so the environment, interface and commands are all still the same. Revit is completely different, and that's an understatement. But, it's a welcomed difference in my opinion. AutoCAD is 30+ years old, and Revit has a fresh new outlook on environment interaction and modeling/output.

Autodesk also has CADmep, ESTmep and CAMduct add-ons for AutoCAD 2014, not sure if there is a cost savings over AutoCAD MEP or not.

I thought that may have been the case Tannar, and I think that may be the point Organic could have been making. Depending on your line of work, Revit may not apply.

 

I was referring to the use of Revit for structural analysis and design. Compared to existing structural analysis and structural design programs it is a long way behind them and has very little take up in the structural engineering field. This is outside of America.

 

Although Revit Structure does have really nice 3D views and graphics compared to the more commonly used programs.

Some of the very first adopters of Revit were from AUS. Some of the best Revit users in the world are in AUS or NZ. This doesn’t mean that AutoCAD may still hold the majority of users in Australia. This is a more demographical thing. Every area of the globe has a different software base that the majority uses.

 

I agree with that. Civil 3D is another example of this. I remember there was a big take up of it about 5 years back and everyone thought it was going to be the next big thing and it just didn't happen. Most firms (the notable exception being PB) went back to the design programs they had used previously. Now-a-days Civil 3D jobs are like finding a needle in a haystack.

 

The tools for MEP and Structure were lacking in the beginning. In the last 5 years however the tools have been added to and improved every year. There are still some areas that are being improved by Autodesk but that’s what happened with AutoCAD as well. It takes time to refine the software to meet the users requirements.

 

I last looked into Revit Structure a year or so ago so will try it out again some time soon to see what has been added in this years release.

 

If you are bashing specifically the analytical tools of Revit then you do not know much about structural engineering. This facet of Revit has always been overlooked because the software the engineers already have works for them and there is no benefit to switching to Revit. Revit has a fully capable analytical package imbedded in it, and if you need more you can export nativly to Robot for more complex calculations.

 

I wasn't saying someone couldn't use Revit Structure successfully. I was saying that the market hasn't taken it up widely. E.g. Space Gass , Microstran & Tekla still dominate the market and it's unlikely to change any time soon.

Civil 3D is actually a commonly used program here when look at soils and the like. As you could imagine it's used very early on in a project to determine what the soil is like and what it's doing and we can then put 3D solids over it or similar use.