Dynamic Block Problem: Actual behaviour different to 'Test Block' behaviour

_SRK_CS.dwg

 

Hi folks.

 

I don't have a lot of experience with dynamic blocks but I am attempting to create a dynamic (and annotative) Cross Section line with attributes. When I test the block it works as expected, but when I actually use the block the attribute labels rotate oddly.

 

I also can't figure out how to enter the attribute details without editing the block. The only way I can get the labels to change in an annotative way is to block it first. So basically I have nested blocks which I'm sure is the problem - just don't know a better way.

 

Thanks for any help in advance.

First thing, the drawing you provided does not have a final version of the block listed on the insert dialog. They are all separate, and it wants to open the final version in the block editor, upon opening the drawing. Apparently the final version of the block has not been saved in this drawing. We cannot see it without Saving Block As... then inserting.

 

The odd rotation behavior can be caused by the text justification "anchor point" being different than the text block insertion point. The justification anchor point will "orbit" around the insertion point of the text block. However, this may not be the answer for your rotation issue, because I don't see anything wrong with the way the rotation works, nor do I see any difference in the way the block behaves in Test Block, and modelspace. But, maybe I have not tested the particular parameter you are refering to.

 

EDIT: Oh, do you want the letters to stay aligned (tilt over) with the arrows when the block is rotated? Hmmmm, for the moment I can't recall how to do that. I'll look it up.

 

Look into block attribute definitions a little more. They don't work as nested blocks the way you are expecting them to. You are having to open the block editor to change your attribute values because the attributes are separate blocks.

 

You can avoid a lot of your issues by forgetting about making the arrows and the text attributes separate blocks. Put both arrows and both text attributes all in one block, then add all the trick parameters and actions. With attribute definitions within the block, to edit the text after insertion you only need to double click ON the attribute text itself. That will open the attribute for editing without opening the block editor. EDIT: I think this will also solve your rotation issues.

 

Another thing, with the attribute definitions part of the arrow block, you don't make the attributes annotative, nor do you use an annotative text style in the attributes. Simply making the whole block annotative is sufficient. The entire block will react annotatively in proportion. What happens in this current block is, the ACTUAL distance between the arrow and the "A" is not changing nor is the ACTUAL size of the "A", when the annotative scale changes. This is because they only have the annotative scale of the overall block assigned to them. They are inside of a block, and cannot be changed in any way without opening the block editor. In other words, annotative objects inside of a block retain the annotative scale of the block editor when it is saved.

 

Also, I recommend always setting the annotative scale to 1:1 in the block editor.

Edited September 11, 2015 by Dana W

Just to add a couple of points, you should check your geometry as well, the hatch in the arrow heads is misformed, the problem shows up when you select only the hatch in the block editor. Another possible problem is that one of your arrows in the final block is actually backwards (the Z property is negative) which may or may not have an effect on how the block works as this changes between annotative scales. I never use annotative (for anything) but Dana's suggestion of keeping everything 1:1 in the block editor sounds sensible. These points aren't to pick out errors in your drawing, just to point out that Autocad can behave in strange ways sometimes.

CS_First_Test.dwg

 

Thank you so much for your detailed feedback both, I appreciate the time you have spent to respond.

 

Your comments make a lot of sense regarding the behaviour. I had previously made a block that worked perfectly in every way (see above) until the annotative scale was changed. They scaled up correctly except for the fact the actual line changed length too - this is why I ended up making the annotative block inside the main block. Then I realised that I needed the arrow and text to scale up relative to the end of the line on each side - this is why I put the attdef and arrow in another block.

 

If you have any ideas on how I can allow the above block to dynamically scale the arrow and text without changing the length I would be very grateful indeed.

EDIT: This post is referring to the first block drawing you posted. I had not looked at CS_First_Test.dwg yet.

 

[ATTACH]55510[/ATTACH]

 

Thank you so much for your detailed feedback both, I appreciate the time you have spent to respond.

 

Your comments make a lot of sense regarding the behaviour. I had previously made a block that worked perfectly in every way (see above) until the annotative scale was changed. They scaled up correctly except for the fact the actual line changed length too - this is why I ended up making the annotative block inside the main block. Then I realised that I needed the arrow and text to scale up relative to the end of the line on each side - this is why I put the attdef and arrow in another block.

 

If you have any ideas on how I can allow the above block to dynamically scale the arrow and text without changing the length I would be very grateful indeed.

There is a copy of an architectural style annotative section callout attached here. It comes with AutoCad. Maybe reverse engineering it can help you.

 

You will want the arrow STEMS to change length annotatively to stay in proportion. That is one reason why we should develop an intended annotative block with the annotative scale set to 1:1 and drawn at its desired size you need it to be on the actual plotted hardcopy (or pdf). To accomplish this, annotative blocks need to be drawn in paperspace units. Your arrows are 15 + meters long. I would draw them at 30mm long +-, with a text height of 5mm to 8mm because that is how big approximately it should print in paperspace.

 

You probably already know this but...

 

When placing annotative objects in modelspace, first set your modelspace annotative scale to whatever scale your final plot will be for the view you are working on at the moment. (1:1000?) so the annotative block can be properly positioned at that scale, then hit the insert button. This is the same way you would adjust the current annotative scale to place annotative dimensions or multi-line text, leaders etc.

 

Also, the distance between the arrows can be modified with a stretch action as an alternative to the move action. Using a stretch or even two can give you the option of changing the length of your arrow stems either along with the arrow separation distance or independently of the overall stretch.

Section Callout.dwg

Edited September 11, 2015 by Dana W

A section line should be made with phantom line type and not a center line.

Thanks again for the feedback. I tried Section Callout.dwg but this has the same behaviour; when you change the scale the section line changes size. Therefore if I used the section line to show a 20m section and then changed the scale it would change the length of the block. What I need is for the block to remain the same length and for the stems to change independantly. We often have to use the same plan multiple times in drawings and it is important that the block remains the same length when using different scales.

 

As for your comment regrading drawing at 1:1 - this is something I had learnt long after I made the CS_First_Test.dwg block. I now draw dyanmic blocks in Paperspace at 1:1. A lesson I learnt the hard way lol.

Thanks again for the feedback. I tried Section Callout.dwg but this has the same behaviour; when you change the scale the section line changes size. Therefore if I used the section line to show a 20m section and then changed the scale it would change the length of the block. What I need is for the block to remain the same length and for the stems to change independantly. We often have to use the same plan multiple times in drawings and it is important that the block remains the same length when using different scales.

I have a feeling you are expecting too much from annotative objects. They have no way of knowing how big your drawing objects are, they only know what scale to be proportional to.

 

What you get is "the same [proportional] length". That's how annotative objects work, and why the block I uploaded has a dynamic stretch. (imperial units, by the way. Hope you caught that.) You shorten it, or lengthen it, or even adjust its position to fit the new scale. Most adjustments at one scale do not affect its appearance at another scale. You can even move them in one scale without it affecting the position in another scale, as long as you use a click and drag move. Using the move command will move the object in ALL scales at the same time.

 

Depending on orientation of the insert point, annotative objects may or may not 'fit' the new scale in overall size, or position, but do always fit in proportional size, and can often require some manual intervention.

 

You will also notice that using annotative dimensions can require some alignment adjustment after the scale changes. The seemingly wasted time manually adjusting some annotative objects depending on scale, is still FAR less wasted time than building or even scaling a separate object for every possible scale you might need 'someday'. As for dimensions, you can set your annotative dimension style to have Fixed Length extension lines in the dim style editor to avoid the allignment issues thst scale changes cause. If the extension lines are fixed length, for instance 1/4", the dimensions will always be offset from your "walls" or other objects 1/4" in paperspace.

 

I have attached a screenshot of an annotative leader and annotative section callout inserted for use at 1/4" = 1'-0". I have them both selected so you can also see the ghost image of what they would look like at 1/2" - 1'-0". I have manipulated the leader so it is in a different position at 1/2" = 1'-0", but I have not changed the section callout. If you can see the ghost 1/2" = 1'-0" callout, you will see that I will have to dynamically stretch the cut line to get it through the countertop and base cabinets. (We don't normally call out detail sections of kitchen cabinets on a plan view, by the way. This is just for illustration.)

 

You see that the insertion point for my callout, center circle, is in exactly the same place in both scales. I have not moved it yet in either scale.

 

As for your comment regrading drawing at 1:1 - this is something I had learnt long after I made the CS_First_Test.dwg block. I now draw dyanmic blocks in Paperspace at 1:1. A lesson I learnt the hard way lol.

Yeah, we all have that doctorate from The School of Hard Knocks, don't we? All one has to do is insert a 10 meter high text block in paperspace to learn that one. You do know that you can change the annotative scale for the block editor, and modelspace with that handy dandy pop-up scale list on the task bar? There's no need to go to paperspace to draw annotative objects in 1:1. It does help orient the visual size relationship to your layout, if you do use paperspace that way. Of course whatever the annotation scale is of the current view, you are still initially creating the "annotative" object in full size drawing units.

Edited September 11, 2015 by Dana W

A section line should be made with phantom line type and not a center line.

I totally agree with you, but that's one of those things that end up being an individual office standard in the artsycraftsy world of architects and interior designers. These boys/girls don't all go down the ISO road in lockstep. (however they sometimes do run into the sea together like lemmings.) I just got done working with a set of architectural drawings with section callouts on the floor plan that had me scratching my head in wonder. I had to look at their (custom) symbol key to figure out what one looked like.

"The great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from."

Someone Somewhere