Maikel_81 Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Totally agree with methuselah, in my company have decided to coordinate the mep revit architecture and structure. Also here in Spain is very rarely seen revit and expand the market and the extranajero revit almost always ask for any offer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Schrader Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 IMHO The decison on whch to use is to use neither... ACAD MEP comes out of the box with fittings that do not exist in the real world. (IE take a look at the flanged reducers included in the system is a 24" x1/2" reducer??) As a hint take a look a the copper reducing Tees they only have straight reducing tees 1 1/4" x 3/4" not 1 1/4" x 3/4" x 3/4". Really try not to use street 90's either.... Be very careful in how you use fittings in Autocad MEP as they are not wholly to Fabrication level accuracy.... Revit MEP is totaly unacceptable from a piping installation stand point. I am working on a 500,000 SQ FT office building that was "coordinated" in Revit prior to contruction. Due partially to the fact tht Revit out of the box does not have the piping systems to our local piping and plumbing code there were literally thousands of colisions when the "correct" piping systems were RE-Drawn in their entirety using fittings with fabrication level accuracy. There were over 30,000 clashes that had to be resovled with just MEP trades alone let alone with the building structure. I have no idea why the designers even atempt to coordinate their designs if the correct size pipies and fittings are not in the model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzframpton Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Revit MEP is totaly unacceptable from a piping installation stand point.I agree 100%, but only if you're referring to how Revit MEP comes "out of the box". Even still, people need to always remember that Revit MEP is not to be intended to mimic a real world fabrication environment. It can do it, but wasn't intended to be such a program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobDraw Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 I think that it is totally unreasonable to expect Revit out of the box to useful to anyone. Imagine how long it would take to make families for every part from for every aspect of building design. The people using Revit have to rely on the manufacturers to produce families for thier products. A lot of them are getting on board but it is still going to take time to build your library. Just like in AutoCAD, libraries and standards needed to be built. When I look back to my first job after a 1 year course in AutoCAD, I was the drafting department. I had limited access to a dial-up connection and only a couple of reference books to use to figure out how to do stuff that was not covered in that class. Although there was a drafter before me and some things were set up, I had no idea how to use or even find some of the stuff, but I did figure things out and it did take a very long time to figure some stuff out that is now second nature to me. Just my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Schrader Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 I think that it is totally unreasonable to expect Revit out of the box to useful to anyone. Imagine how long it would take to make families for every part from for every aspect of building design. The people using Revit have to rely on the manufacturers to produce families for thier products. A lot of them are getting on board but it is still going to take time to build your library. Just like in AutoCAD, libraries and standards needed to be built. When I look back to my first job after a 1 year course in AutoCAD, I was the drafting department. I had limited access to a dial-up connection and only a couple of reference books to use to figure out how to do stuff that was not covered in that class. Although there was a drafter before me and some things were set up, I had no idea how to use or even find some of the stuff, but I did figure things out and it did take a very long time to figure some stuff out that is now second nature to me. Just my 2 cents. Well I dont have any idea how you could do even a rudimentary 3D coordination usins piping systems that are not accurate. How can you tell if you ceiling heights will work if the plumbing system uses fittings that are not allowed by code? For out of the box fittings look at the products produced by East Coast Cad and or TSI software. Both companies use real world fittings. To use Revit for anything other than a "Design" tool to do pipe sizing and such is a VERY labor intensive process. With all of the Arch. and Struct. engineers pushing Revit on to those of us in the real world to use Revit-MEP we will continue to look on Revit as a very expensive software option. In todays buisness climate I only know of one MEP contractor (Duct work) that has spent the time and effort to make Revit work in a real world coordination environment. Even the one that I know of uses a translation system (IE Two programs) to be able to drive their CNC machines.. Even then their duct work does not show the flanges of individual pieces. Just for an example I once started thru the Acad MEP out of the box catalog checking for both accuracy and for fittings that can actually be ordered (acad MEP used to have a 24" x 1/4" flanged reducer). I spent 3 months doing nothing but this and I suceeded in verifing over 3000 individual fittings. This is from a catalog that alerady existed.. I estimated that I had over 7000 more to go. Try doing this sort of thing from scratch and you will have some idea of the task for the MEP contractor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobDraw Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 I am on the design end and agree to a point. But you have to look at the projects that have been done entirely in Revit and it is quite impressive and can produce coordinated models. It can be very precise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzframpton Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Well I dont have any idea how you could do even a rudimentary 3D coordination usins piping systems that are not accurate.How can you tell if you ceiling heights will work if the plumbing system uses fittings that are not allowed by code? For out of the box fittings look at the products produced by East Coast Cad and or TSI software. Both companies use real world fittings. To use Revit for anything other than a "Design" tool to do pipe sizing and such is a VERY labor intensive process. With all of the Arch. and Struct. engineers pushing Revit on to those of us in the real world to use Revit-MEP we will continue to look on Revit as a very expensive software option. In todays buisness climate I only know of one MEP contractor (Duct work) that has spent the time and effort to make Revit work in a real world coordination environment. Even the one that I know of uses a translation system (IE Two programs) to be able to drive their CNC machines.. Even then their duct work does not show the flanges of individual pieces. Just for an example I once started thru the Acad MEP out of the box catalog checking for both accuracy and for fittings that can actually be ordered (acad MEP used to have a 24" x 1/4" flanged reducer). I spent 3 months doing nothing but this and I suceeded in verifing over 3000 individual fittings. This is from a catalog that alerady existed.. I estimated that I had over 7000 more to go. Try doing this sort of thing from scratch and you will have some idea of the task for the MEP contractor. Once again an individual who doesn't understand the concept of the Revit platforms. Tom, if Revit is so lacking with real-world fittings, then why not capitalize on the opportunity to create them all and sell them? What's stopping you? Free the Revit MEP world of this nonsense!! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Schrader Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Once again an individual who doesn't understand the concept of the Revit platforms. Tom, if Revit is so lacking with real-world fittings, then why not capitalize on the opportunity to create them all and sell them? What's stopping you? Free the Revit MEP world of this nonsense!! lol If I am so lacking in understaning of the "GREAT REVIT" platform and the concept of Revit why dont you climb down from your high mountain of Revit Knowledge and explain to my Boss how he can afford to pay me to spend 6 months or more creating all the families for all of the different piping systems needed to complete a building. Then after that feat try explaing to him that after this effort I will not be able to generate fabrication drawings automatically from the 3D model created. Finally if you are stiil standing after those bits of information are passed on to hem why dont you try and also explain to him why his expensive robotic total station survey equipment will no longer be able to be used. When you are done with this I need you to go over and explain to my controls contractor why he will have to buy and learn a new software to be able to get his informationfrom my 3d Revit model. Once that is done could you please get the HVAC (duct work) contractor to please add the correct sized flanges to his duct work so I am not constantly hitting them in the field after we coordinated his Revit Ductwork? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzframpton Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 **NOTE** My response is to clarify for the community. With my extensive mechanical contracting experience as a sheet metal and pipe fabrication mechanic, plus my 7+ years currently with extensive experience using AutoCAD MEP, TSI CAD-MEP and the Revit Platforms, this is purely to resolve the potential incorrect information from this poster's opinions. If I am so lacking in understaning of the "GREAT REVIT" platform and the concept of Revit why dont you climb down from your high mountain of Revit Knowledge and explain to my Boss how he can afford to pay me to spend 6 months or more creating all the families for all of the different piping systems needed to complete a building.I'm not on the mountain. You are. With only 4 posts in this forum you are coming in awfully strong willed. Some of us have been around here for years and have earned our keep within this community, which is a very tight one I might add. First of all, you are using a building design platform that is team-oriented and has the engineer in mind, not the contractor. Secondly, like I said before, Revit is not intended to be a fabrication drafting and design application. It can be used as such a program but Revit is not fine-tuned to be utilized for fabrication-level design and output. So if you want Revit to be precise then you have all the tools you need to make it as accurate as you need. Quit moaning about Revit’s capabilities for MEP fabrication as it gives false testimony for the platform and can/will greatly confuse readers that are in search of this type of information. Then after that feat try explaing to him that after this effort I will not be able to generate fabrication drawings automatically from the 3D model created.Once again I’ll reiterate; out of the box Design-to-Fabrication software exists and Revit is not one of them. TSI CAD-MEP & Eastcoast CAM are two popular ones. These software applications have the contractor in mind. Quit using a fork to eat soup and grab a spoon like you're suppose to. If you are forced to use Revit because of the requirements of the general contractor then you must adjust to fit the needs of the market. I've had to do it in the past, and I still do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobDraw Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Schrader Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Well it seems that I have touched a nerve there MR StykfacE..... I did not denegrate your opinion I MEARLY stated my opininon, I did not resort to ad hominem attacks on you or your opinion. Somebody asked about the different ways that MEP could be done. I simply stated my OPINION on the matter and you come on all high and mighty supporting the Revit platform. Never once answering any of my points... I NEVER once put down your experience nor did I make light of all the posts you have on here. You are the one doing both of these things... So maybe you should take a look in the mirror This whole post was a person asking for opinions.. I gave mine and then for some reason you thought it best to "Correct" my opinion.. The last I checked we still have freedom of speach. I did not impune yours or anyone else's experience. If you want to talk about experience come back and talk to me when you have learned several other cad packages by somebody other than Softdesk. Maybe come back a talk experience when you have double digit years of experience. some how I dont think it will make a difference to you but just as as a side note you might want to refrain from talking about someones experience when you do not know what it is... (IE that is basically a working definition of ad hominem) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzframpton Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 The last I checked we still have freedom of speech.You do not have free speech on CADTutor.net. This is a privately owned message board with moderators that will edit things as needed. I've been censored a good handful of times myself. Even if you still think you have free speech on this forum, good luck enforcing one of your posts that's been edited. My **NOTE** regarding my experience was not intended to be directed at you - it was for the moderators of this forum (whom all know me very well) and for all others who stumble upon this thread so they understand that your opinion just may be very misleading (which it is). Since you are new here, you don't realize how tight this community is and we all here do not like any possibility of false information being thrown around loosely here. Revit is one of the biggest platforms to be misled due to lack of true knowledge about the intent of the program along with the capabilities, and since most people compare Revit MEP to AutoCAD MEP it can be a very grave mistake as the two applications are nothing alike, even though they are marketed to the same trade (the MEP engineering/construction market). Don't be angry because I have experienced differences than your own. The viewers of this forum board are the ones who matter most, not your personal feelings, which is why I posted my response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Schrader Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 Thanks for adressing and or solving my problems with Revit by waving your magic wand... I brought up many valid points about Revit and yet you continue to stand on your high horse saying I am spreading misconceptions about the "Great Revit " platform... However I can not stand your arogance to not even admit that I have a few valid points about Revit. you stand on high delivering "The Mesage" that Revit is great and has no flaws. Well because of your over riding ignorance I will no longer participate in this menu board I will take my 20 years of experience in the MEP trades and 5 years actually operating one of the most advanced MEP environments and leave this forum. It is people like you that makes me wonder where is the common courtsey in this society. I did not resort to adhom attacks on your views nor did I denegrate your lack of experience. I simply stated my views about the CURRENT state of the Revit MEP package. NOT ONCE in any of your responses did you actually offer any POSITIVE comments about the lack of tools availible in the Revit software. Nowhere in my posts did I say that the corrct items could not be created in Revit. I mearly pointed out the fact that Revit does not come out of the box with them. As a final point it TSI/MAP software is so horible then why did Softdesk buy the company???? Good Bye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CADTutor Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 You do not have free speech on CADTutor.net. This statement is incorrect. Any member of this forum has the right to express their opinion, irrespective of the opinions of others. None of the posts in this thread has been edited or altered in any way. We do reserve the right to remove or edit posts that may cause offence (bad language etc.) or those that are intended to cause trouble. Neither is true in this case although I feel the 2 strongly held views were expressed with a lack of respect for the other interlocutors experience. As a general point, even if a forum member disagrees, with a stated opinion, they cannot assume that it is formed out of ignorance. In this case, the alternate opinion was borne out of a different experience in a different context. On another day, I guess you two could learn a lot from one another. ...I can not stand your arogance to not even admit that I have a few valid points about Revit. you stand on high delivering "The Mesage" that Revit is great and has no flaws. This is a misrepresentation of the views expressed. Having read the thread, it is clear what the poster meant, even if those views were expressed rather strongly. Although this thread is not edited, I am closing it as further discussion is likely to be unproductive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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