Autodesk loses court battle - Selling your licence

[tzframpton]

Hey, we ain't in business to get good press, we're in business to make money. Lots of money. Gobs of money. More money than your average Joe or Jane could spend in 100 lifetimes. Money, money, money. MONEY! :twisted:

Mark. Give me one reason why making money is a bad thing? I'll answer it for you - there's not. Because Autodesk isn't forcing any product down anybody's throat. People are buying it at will. So it's the consumer's who are making Autodesk rich. They are willingly giving over their hard earned money to Autodesk for a product in exchange. All Autodesk does is offer it. That's it. They offer a product that THEY created, and they put a price on THEIR creation. But... somehow.... you and LCE are pointing a finger at Autodesk in shame. As if they are the ones to blame.

 

And now LCE is bringing "humanity" into pricing of a product? LOL!!!!!! OMG that cracks me up. So now it's "inhumane" to put any price you want on your own creation? So now all business as a whole should have sympathy for the poor? Or for the people who can't afford it? So... by this new "inhumane" act that EVERY business is guilty of, they have to lower their prices so that EVERYONE who wants the product or service available can buy it, right? So it's now "inhumane" to charge $200 for a plane ticket because there are people who can't afford it? So it's "inhumane" for Sony to put a $2,000 price tag on an HDTV because that shows no sympathy for people who WANT one but can't AFFORD one, correct?

 

So, now... business should be based on sympathy? compassion for the poor? the lazy? the people who chose to not work hard in this world?

 

What kind of communistic thread has this come to???? Baffles me....

 

 

PS: For the record Mark and LCE, you guys should know that you are some cool dudes on this board, and take this post strictly as a challenge to your logic. I still love my fellow AutoCAD guru's and trust that this is just for debate. I am merely playing Devil's Advocate, but this is definitely what I believe. Just FYI so nothing gets flared up.

[rustysilo]

I for one am quite giddy over the ruling and I do hope that Vernor wins and is awarded a fair amount.

 

Autodesk can charge whatever the heck they want for their products, but they cannot control the sale of used products. That's what the case is about.

 

I would agree that their products are way overpriced (by my standards), but it is their choice to set prices. As said before much of my problem with pricing is that you first pay several thousand for the license and then if you really want to learn it (quickly) you must pay for either books or training and many of the books are nearly worthless and the training isn't much better in come cases. Any official learning material that is free is more or less just marketing for product or training. We see this even with the official user group (augi) where it has become a "mouthpiece" for Autodesk to market product and/or training as opposed to being a 100% genuine user group. Thankfully we have options such as cadtutor and theswamp where some rather intelligent users will answer questions free of charge.

 

Back to the cost; the part that sucks about the cost of the software most is for the small businesses and/or freelancers who simply cannot afford the high cost. Autodesk should come up with some way to satisfy these customers without ripping out their *bleep*.

 

These are the problems I have with Autodesk. Not to mention the fact that their resellers are not always honest with you. They are very much like debt collectors in the way they deal with you. Not all of them, but some of them to be sure.

[ReMark]

A commie thread? Stykman, that gave me a good chuckle. And yes I do know where you're coming from so I take no offense what-so-ever. I welcome a healthy discussion.

 

Humanity and the cost of the product aside, you do not see any advantage to AutoDe$k buying back their licenses? Not even at a greatly reduced price? Seems like a solution that would satisfy both sides of the issue without incurring the wrath of either. If I sold my license back at least I would recoup some of my investment (albeit a mere pittance) and at the same time AutoDe$k would know what became of the software.

 

Suppose I go out right now and illegally sell (by AutoDe$k's definition mind you) my software and manuals? How does that benefit AutoDe$k? It doesn't. How does AutoDe$k track that software? You mean to tell me that right now, this very minute, they can tell exactly how many licensed copies are out there and where they are located? I doubt they could nail all 100%.

[tzframpton]

well when LCE brought the term "humanity" into this discussion I about took my afternoon restroom break on the very seat I read that on. That was just insane.... lol

 

That comment was more for him than you. You just don't like anyone making too much money which baffles my mind too. I bet you work for $8/hr because anything more than that would be "too much money" for you right?

 

(remember Mark, just a joke man!! )

[LCE]

Mark. Give me one reason why making money is a bad thing? I'll answer it for you - there's not. Because Autodesk isn't forcing any product down anybody's throat. People are buying it at will. So it's the consumer's who are making Autodesk rich. They are willingly giving over their hard earned money to Autodesk for a product in exchange. All Autodesk does is offer it. That's it. They offer a product that THEY created, and they put a price on THEIR creation. But... somehow.... you and LCE are pointing a finger at Autodesk in shame. As if they are the ones to blame.

 

And now LCE is bringing "humanity" into pricing of a product? LOL!!!!!! OMG that cracks me up. So now it's "inhumane" to put any price you want on your own creation? So now all business as a whole should have sympathy for the poor? Or for the people who can't afford it? So... by this new "inhumane" act that EVERY business is guilty of, they have to lower their prices so that EVERYONE who wants the product or service available can buy it, right? So it's now "inhumane" to charge $200 for a plane ticket because there are people who can't afford it? So it's "inhumane" for Sony to put a $2,000 price tag on an HDTV because that shows no sympathy for people who WANT one but can't AFFORD one, correct?

 

So, now... business should be based on sympathy? compassion for the poor? the lazy? the people who chose to not work hard in this world?

 

What kind of communistic thread has this come to???? Baffles me....

 

 

PS: For the record Mark and LCE, you guys should know that you are some cool dudes on this board, and take this post strictly as a challenge to your logic. I still love my fellow AutoCAD guru's and trust that this is just for debate. I am merely playing Devil's Advocate, but this is definitely what I believe. Just FYI so nothing gets flared up.

 

1st off, Tex, thanks for the man love.

 

2nd off, I wasn't quite going to the extreme that you mentioned when I said humanity (maybe I should keep my tree-hugging thoughts to myself). I have no problem at all with the Autodesk pricing policy, personally, I think it is a good price for a tool that makes us all a fortune and is quite simply fantastic. I perfectly understand it is their tool, they sell it to us, and we willingly buy it, but once we have bought it, do we not have some rights? All I was saying is why do they have to take this action and force the consumer into a corner. How would you feel if you bought a house (or a horse:P) and was then told that you could not sell it, even if you didn't want or need it? Providing you do not do anything illegal with it, I feel the consumer should be able to do what they like with their possessions, including software licences.

I would just like someone to prove that you don't have to be a f*cker to succeed in business.

 

 

So, now... business should be based on sympathy? compassion for the poor? the lazy? the people who chose to not work hard in this world?

Heck no. The people who chose not work hard should have no sympathy, no benefits, no anything. But that is another discussion for another day.

 

The more I think about it, the more I like the suggestion of a buy-back stipulation. That way Autodesk still have control of the market, but the little guy doesn't waste a load of money if he buys AutoCAD and then comes to a point where he no longer needs it.

 

I am glad this thread has kept going, I was expecting it to die straight out with only the OP, but it has grown into a very good discussion. Cheers fellas.

[LCE]

well when LCE brought the term "humanity" into this discussion I about took my afternoon restroom break on the very seat I read that on. That was just insane.... lol

 

That comment was more for him than you. You just don't like anyone making too much money which baffles my mind too. I bet you work for $8/hr because anything more than that would be "too much money" for you right?

 

(remember Mark, just a joke man!! )

 

OK OK, I get it, stupid word to use. I had been looking at local charities for a while so all those lovely words were in the front of my mind.

 

So stop bashing me and my humanity and get back to the herd Tex.

 

As Mark said, do you disagree with the possibility of buy-back, or sell-back from our point. Would you not think that would be a good scheme that would benefit everyone for the reasons already given?

[ReMark]

Stykman...at least I budged a little bit (on the buy back price). You on the other hand are as stuck in the mud as a, a, a...

 

...a Texan's boot? How'd you like the flame avoidance? I really wanted something a little more flowery.

 

Addendum:

 

Can you name me another item that you own that you couldn't go out and sell, right now, this very minute, because you didn't have permission from the manufacturer?

 

AddenduH?

 

I was looking for a good ol Texan saying to put in place of the above and stumbled across this. I got a laugh or two and so will you. And I ain't pokin' no fun at dat der Styky man.

 

http://baetzler.de/humor/texan_sayings.html

[rkmcswain]

Whilst I 100% agree with the 1st point that you made, I have to question the second.

If I joined the navy next week, I would want to sell my car because I have no use for it. As I would have no use for AutoCAD.

If Autodesk want to carry on the route they have been on, why not intiate a scheme allowing the user to sell the licence back to Autodesk at a reduced cost?

 

I think we do agree on the second point. I wasn't taking the side of Autodesk, just guessing at their point of view. I think you should be able to sell AutoCAD also.

[rkmcswain]

...Because Autodesk isn't forcing any product down anybody's throat. People are buying it at will. So it's the consumer's who are making Autodesk rich..

.

 

Agree completely. Autodesk has a lot of smart people working for them and they have determined that $3800 (or whatever it is) is the price that allows them to make the most profit without losing sales over the price. It's no different than any other good business model.

 

 

 

 

the part that sucks about the cost of the software most is for the small businesses and/or freelancers who simply cannot afford the high cost. Autodesk should come up with some way to satisfy these customers without ripping out their...

 

I disagree. The reason ±95% of all small businesses fail is a poor business plan. Most people needs tools to do their job. If you went into business digging ditches, you would need a shovel. A delivery man needs a truck, a gardener needs gardening tools, an accountant needs accounting software, and an engineer/drafter needs a CAD program.

 

All of these things should be part of a good business plan. Just like you need a place to work, office supplies, a telephone, computer, etc., etc.

 

I think too frenquently, people try to start a business by working out of their home, on the family computer, using a "borrowed" license of AutoCAD, etc., with no real business plan or capital at all... In that case, yes -- AutoCAD is a tad expensive. But you could always use IntelliCAD or some other low cost clone.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that I wouldn't like to see AutoCAD on sale for $99.99, but it's not going to happen. The market will determine the price. Kind of like what's happening right now with oil (gasoline).

[tzframpton]

Stykman...at least I budged a little bit (on the buy back price)Can you name me another item that you own that you couldn't go out and sell, right now, this very minute, because you didn't have permission from the manufacturer?

 

Well lets see..... I pay money to my apartment complex. In the contract it states that I am going to give them money every month and in return I can stay here. Only I have the key, and so do they. Nobody else can live here while I'm here. Thus for the "time being" that I am using my apartment it is mine. But... wait... I can't sell it or rent it out to anyone else?? Why is that? Oh, duh, forgot... it was in the contract that I agreed to in the beginning of the sale.

 

Again, let's see... Oh I am looking at my cable box that I pay a monthly fee for. Well It's supplying my cable. I am using it for my uses. I have paid for it. But I can't sell it to someone else... why is that? Oh that's right because the owner of it tells me I can't do so in the contract that I agreed to when I set up my cable.

 

My point is this: It doesn't matter what I think. It's not my product. It's Autodesk's. They created it, so they can put any rule on it they want. Do I agree with it? No. Is it their naturally given right to make that decision? Yes.

 

If you don't like it, then there's ways around it. Beat the system. Download it and find the serial/crack for it, if it pisses you off that bad.

[tzframpton]

Kind of like what's happening right now with oil (gasoline).

Oh Dear Lord.... Gas is killing everyone right now. Sucks too because it makes everything go up due to the fact that the entire nation is shipped on diesel fuel. It's about $90 to fill up the tank in my truck. haha

[Dipali]

.

I disagree. The reason ±95% of all small businesses fail is a poor business plan. Most people needs tools to do their job. If you went into business digging ditches, you would need a shovel. A delivery man needs a truck, a gardener needs gardening tools, an accountant needs accounting software, and an engineer/drafter needs a CAD program.

 

All of these things should be part of a good business plan. Just like you need a place to work, office supplies, a telephone, computer, etc., etc.

 

I think too frenquently, people try to start a business by working out of their home, on the family computer, using a "borrowed" license of AutoCAD, etc., with no real business plan or capital at all... In that case, yes -- AutoCAD is a tad expensive. But you could always use IntelliCAD or some other low cost clone.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that I wouldn't like to see AutoCAD on sale for $99.99, but it's not going to happen. The market will determine the price. Kind of like what's happening right now with oil (gasoline).

 

I am a small business owner my self and agree with you completely.

 

I bought 1 LT license for myself but now with the need of adding up a staff & also need the abiltiy of full version, but am not in position to get extra licenses of autocad due to high price. That is why I ma looking at different alternatives & trying other product like 'progcad' & if I can manage my work with it I will buy that.

(I will start a new thread to get info about other low cost alternative http://www.cadtutor.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24096)

 

 

ps: yes, fuel prices are killing everyone. just this week, here government has increased the price to big no. & it will surely effect evry onther products.

we bought car just 10 days ago & driving a lot these days but with increasing fuel price we will, have to restict our outings or else we will have to buckle up & earn more money:huh:

[ReMark]

Watch out. Don't get people started on the price of gasoline. We'll have an insurrection on our hands!

[ReMark]

Bad analogies Styk. Both examples are of "leases". You don't actually "buy" either. On the other hand, AutoDe$k ads never mention "leasing" a copy of AutoCAD. It's not until you get the product home, after you've bought it, go to load it on your computer, then you find out that you're leasing it. Nice try though.

[LCE]

Bad analogies Styk. Both examples are of "leases". You don't actually "buy" either. On the other hand, AutoDe$k ads never mention "leasing" a copy of AutoCAD. It's not until you get the product home, after you've bought it, go to load it on your computer, then you find out that you're leasing it. Nice try though.

That is a VERY good point.

In the case that I buy ACAD for the very first time from some joke of a reseller, and I am never informed of the EULA, if I were to disagree with it, so not accept and therefore be unable to install the software, would I be entitled to a refund?

 

Actually, who has even been informed of the EULA before attempting to install the software? Has a reseller ever discussed it with you?

[ReMark]

The way EULAs are written the software manufacturer cannot be helded liable if anything goes wrong. Imagine buying or leasing a new car under the same conditions.

[LCE]

Speaking of the EULA check out this content from another agreement

 

You acknowledge that XXXXX may have added third party software to the products and services, and that by installing such products and services you understand that this third party software may affect the way your computer performs. You agree that you must evaluate, and bear all risks associated with, the use of any Content, including any reliance on the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of such Content."

[tzframpton]

That is a VERY good point.

In the case that I buy ACAD for the very first time from some joke of a reseller, and I am never informed of the EULA, if I were to disagree with it, so not accept and therefore be unable to install the software, would I be entitled to a refund?

 

Actually, who has even been informed of the EULA before attempting to install the software? Has a reseller ever discussed it with you?

No it's not a very good point. It's the same thing. You can get ahold of the EULA before you purchase AutoCAD.

[ReMark]

Now you're going to tell us you obtain and read beforehand any EULAs for all software you plan on purchasing? Whoa Nelly. I think I'm hip deep in some horse-puckey.

[tzframpton]

Not saying that at all. But it's the customer's responsibility, ultimately.