Tuns Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 What the industry wants and what the industry needs are 2 different things. The industry seems to want what isn't needed and has no desire for what is actually needed. AutoCAD provides everything that the industry needs, but people want things that AutoCAD can't do. I don't understand myself why people would want things that aren't needed. It's like making a round wheel a different shape because you want it to be different, not because it needs to be different. "It's been round for thousands of years!! We need to change that!" Same concept, almost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steven-g Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 It just means you need to alter the way roads are built, we actually have roads like that here, (we just don't got the square wheels yet) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuns Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Yeah, you guys also have roads that make music when you drive over them at a certain speed too. Now THAT'S cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzframpton Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 It's like making a round wheel a different shape because you want it to be different, not because it needs to be different. "It's been round for thousands of years!! We need to change that!" Same concept, almost.Although I 100% appreciate your enthusiasm to join in on the discussion, you couldn't be further from the truth, AND your analogy doesn't follow the real-world scenario of the transition from AutoCAD (dumb CAD) to Inventor/Revit/Catia (smart CAD). A better analogy of a wheel example would be this: "Lets take this wheel, and make it better by adding three more, place it on a frame with axle's and bearings, with a shaft and linkage system so we can steer it." It's not about changing it, it's about improving it. You see, inside Revit MEP, you can take the volumetric space conditions, get the thermal R-value off the walls, floor and ceilings, and calculate load information which will size your ductwork and add up the CFM discharge for the unit you've placed for the space. Read up on how Revit performs calculations, something AutoCAD simply cannot provide. Or there's the infamous sheet metal "flat pattern" tool in Inventor. Or stress analysis. The list goes on. AutoCAD is a digital pencil. Inventor, Revit, Catia, etc.... are digital tools for designers and engineers, AND can intelligently house and use data for whatever purpose you may need. Tuns, you're a smart dude and you definitely know your AutoCAD for being as young as you are. But you haven't been in this business long enough to have a real opinion in the matter, especially if all you know is AutoCAD. You only know one side of it. I've used AutoCAD for years, AND now Revit. I've used both, and I know both very well, so I am in a position to actually have a real opinion on it - not because I'm better than you (please don't think that) but because of my inherent experience. Oh and you will always have the old-timers (by that I mean mentality, not literally.... for you Rob) that swear something's never going to change. Ha, always makes me giggle. Engineers don't want to draw things, then do manual calculations on a scratch pad or calculator. Project Managers want and need scheduling information. Estimators want cost figures. All of these are not possible with programs like AutoCAD and Microstation out of the box. Parametric, database-driven CAD applications can, and can do it very well. I'm actually trying to do you a favor and help your career here Tuns.... start thing about getting away from a program that has been around for more than thirty years and pave your career path for the next thirty years by making a wise decision to pitch looking into a better CAD application to your boss. -Tannar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
resullins Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Tannar, I appreciate your point, and there are a LOT of ways that AC is just a digital pencil, as you so eloquently put it. However, what would you suggest for people that need to draw lines and circles on paper? We do a lot of schematics and other type drawings that something like Revit just can't do. I'm not trying to be snarky, I'm really curious. Of course my AutoDesk Dealer suggested we upgrade everyone to MEP, but I'm not really sure how that would help what we do. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReMark Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 I don't see REVIT as being the answer to everything I do either. It doesn't even satisfy the needs of the industry it is targeted at according to what Ralph Grabowski heard at some big (REVIT or BIM) conference late last year. I'll have to see if I can find a copy of the newsletter. Re: AutoDesk and Subscription. We have it for my full version and the electrical engineer's vertical product. All other copies of AutoCAD are not on Subscription. Will we continue to stay on Subscription in the future? Can't say with 100% certainty but at some point my boss or the head bean counter is going to ask what we are getting for the money besides a yearly upgrade and honestly it ain't much more than that at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuns Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 With how much gridlock I've seen, it doesn't matter how 'inexperienced' you say I am. It takes no effort to notice that being "information rich" is the last thing we need. 10-15 years ago there wasn't hardly any gridlock in the industry and now, with all the communication and information rich business going on, almost nothing can get done. People spend more time reading e-mails and staying connected to everything that's going on that they can't even get their own job done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReMark Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 I think there will always be a need for an all-purpose program like AutoCAD or one of its clones because there are some companies, like ours, where one gets to do a little bit of everything. Otherwise now you are talking about buying a "suite" which may be overkill and more expensive to boot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
resullins Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 I don't see REVIT as being the answer to everything I do either. It doesn't even satisfy the needs of the industry it is targeted at according to what Ralph Grabowski heard at some big (REVIT or BIM) conference late last year. I'll have to see if I can find a copy of the newsletter. That's what I'm curious about... I mean, short of going to VidCAD (kill me now) I don't see another AutoDesk product that does simple schematic-type 2D drawings. The industries aren't ALL ready to automate to BIM yet... the technology just isn't there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzframpton Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Tannar, I appreciate your point, and there are a LOT of ways that AC is just a digital pencil, as you so eloquently put it. However, what would you suggest for people that need to draw lines and circles on paper? We do a lot of schematics and other type drawings that something like Revit just can't do. I'm not trying to be snarky, I'm really curious. Of course my AutoDesk Dealer suggested we upgrade everyone to MEP, but I'm not really sure how that would help what we do. Thoughts?I know you're not being snarky resullins. I definitely am okay with being put on the spot with opinions. It's expected even, especially at a forum where 80-90% of the topics are directly related to AutoCAD. So, on to your question. Did someone tell you that the Revit platform can't "draft"? I hope not, because it most certainly can. Revit is just as capable as AutoCAD, and in some areas is even strong that AutoCAD in 2D drafting. It even has the same Object Snaps and everything. But, AutoCAD still is and always will be king of 2D. AutoCAD has LISP and other programming languages that make it FAR faster. But you have Drafting Views in Revit and we still use 2D drafting in Revit a ton. Once you get used to how easy it is to 2D draft in Revit, you don't miss AutoCAD that much. I don't see REVIT as being the answer to everything I do either. It doesn't even satisfy the needs of the industry it is targeted at according to what Ralph Grabowski heard at some big (REVIT or BIM) conference late last year. I'll have to see if I can find a copy of the newsletter.Well, Revit and AutoCAD are two completely different platforms that advertise completely different needs. Revit is BIM, AutoCAD is not. If all you need to do is "draw" then AutoCAD is your best bet. If you need 3D, information rich models that can collaborate with an entire team across WAN for the AEC industry, then Revit is your best bet. One is not better than the other, they're two completely independent platforms altogether. Revit doesn't advertise to be an answer to "everything" or even an answer for a "better AutoCAD". It's a different program completely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzframpton Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 That's what I'm curious about... I mean, short of going to VidCAD (kill me now) I don't see another AutoDesk product that does simple schematic-type 2D drawings. The industries aren't ALL ready to automate to BIM yet... the technology just isn't there.I do all my electrical one lines, plumbing risers, etc. all in 2D in Revit. All of my typical details that are schematic based - all 2D, just like AutoCAD. It's so much easier to do in Revit, honestly. The only thing AutoCAD has over Revit would be the ability of LISP to make schematic drafting super-fast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReMark Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 What is the cost difference between REVIT and plain AutoCAD? What is the difference in learning curves IF one never used a CAD program before? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzframpton Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 I think there will always be a need for an all-purpose program like AutoCAD or one of its clones because there are some companies, like ours, where one gets to do a little bit of everything. Otherwise now you are talking about buying a "suite" which may be overkill and more expensive to boot.Agreed! But.... $5k? That's just not justifiable anymore, IMHO. Granted, AutoCAD comes with some awesome stuff.... mental ray rendering engine, native DWG platform, decades of LISP tools roaming around, Tool Palettes (a big one for me). But I can't see $5k for a 2D drafting tool with aged 3D modeling tools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzframpton Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 What is the cost difference between REVIT and plain AutoCAD? What is the difference in learning curves IF one never used a CAD program before?The learning curve is just as easy if someone starts out in one or the other. If you come from one platform, then of course the learning curve will be steeper. But it's not fair to calculate the direct cost between Revit and AutoCAD, because the platforms aren't directly comparable. Many people confuse this topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
resullins Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 The learning curve is just as easy if someone starts out in one or the other. If you come from one platform, then of course the learning curve will be steeper. But it's not fair to calculate the direct cost between Revit and AutoCAD, because the platforms aren't directly comparable. Many people confuse this topic. So, in your opinion, if AC were to go the way of the dodo, what would be its direct replacement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReMark Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 The most direct replacement would be an Erector set coupled with an Etch-A-Sketch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzframpton Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 So, in your opinion, if AC were to go the way of the dodo, what would be its direct replacement?There isn't a replacement for AutoCAD. You either use an AutoCAD based platform, or you don't. It's not "AutoCAD" that goes away, it's "general 2D drafting program" that goes away. The most direct replacement would be an Erector set coupled with an Etch-A-Sketch.haha nice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
resullins Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 There isn't a replacement for AutoCAD. You either use an AutoCAD based platform, or you don't. It's not "AutoCAD" that goes away, it's "general 2D drafting program" that goes away. haha nice! Ok... see, that's where I disagree. I believe that market will always exist... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzframpton Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Ok... see, that's where I disagree. I believe that market will always exist...We're actually not disagreeing. There will always be a need for a general, 2D CAD application. It's fundamentally something that we all will need. AutoCAD, in its current state of development, being used in the "AEC" industry will eventually cease to exist. And right now, when I get a side job that requires 2D mechanical HVAC shop drawing layout, I still use (and prefer to use) AutoCAD. I'm just so fast at it, and Revit couldn't dream of creating 2D shop drawings as fast as AutoCAD, but that's because Revit isn't set up to do 2D drafting in the way AutoCAD is. Again, two different platforms, that advertise two different market demands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f700es Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Well plain AutoCAD is (today) $4,740 usd. AutoCAD Design Suite Standard is $4,525 usd, which includes AutoCAD, Raster Design, SketchBook Designer, Showcase and Mudbox. When you buy Revit in a suite you get AutoCAD. You can't buy it alone so you always get your moneys worth in software. You can still buy the Standard Building Design Suite ($5,775) without Revit but I could see this option more for residential builders that don't really need Revit. If some do there is the Revit LT Suite ($1,495) for them. I still see AutoCAD sticking around. I do feel that current pricing and editions could use a change. AutoCAD LT, as it is, should be $500. No more, that's it. Too many competitors give their "LT" version away. Compete or get out of the game! AutoCAD Standard: Full AutoCAD with 3D features, database connectivity, LISP and customization but no rendering engine, $,1,500. Most users don't use it so why pay for it. AutoCAD Pro: Everything it is today. $2,500 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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