The basic stuff

[steven-g]

I have been following a course now for a while and they are using a book as an example, I must say I am really enjoying this new way of working, but there are a few points, the first project is an example with everything setup for a basic house design, what I would love to see is the real basic stuff, some people may consider it more advanced material but I want to know how these families work it's fine having preset wall types but why do they work, what is actually driving this stuff. In Autocad if you want to do anything interesting you have to create blocks etc, here we are being given "blocks" but no concept of the underlying thought process, are there any resources that start with this basic stuff, like, what is a project?, what is a family? and what makes it tick.

 

A second point, maybe linked, when drawing a detail, we are shown how to cover a lower portion of the wall insulation at the top of the foundation level with a region, so it looks like it would in normal construction, or the expansion joint around a floor slab, again is added as a region in the detail, sorry but this just feels like using overridden dimensions, surely there has to be a way to add this sort of detail into the wall/floor family. Or using a filled region to redraw a hatch pattern that "looks" nicer.

 

To be clear I'm not looking for specific answers on problems, just some really clear "simple" explanation of whats going on 'under the hood' if it exists. Does anyone know any good books or youtube channels that get into this stuff.

[Dadgad]

Steven, sorry I can't help you , but I am so happy for you, and can only imagine how awesome (albeit mysterious) these new tools are for you.

 

Tannar has suggested a Revit specific board previously, I am sure when he sees this, he will have some info for you.

Maybe RobDraw can help shine some light your way.

Edited October 10, 2016 by Dadgad

[RobDraw]

I get wanting to understand more but what you are calling "real basic stuff" will be found as you advance your learning. Your current course may touch on it or you may need a more advanced course before you really get into it or you can dig in on your own.

 

Detailing in Revit can be a lot like overriding a dimension. Tons of information can be contained in the model but it won't display it with any real fine detail. You'll still be using standard details to show stuff that Revit can't or doesn't show well or for non-standard details you might find yourself augmenting live views with linework. Even standard details may have to be "dumbed down" for Revit. Even 2D linework has limitations, unlike AutoCAD which is nearly limitless.

 

Courses are great but they are designed to work with whatever they are teaching. A lot depends on the instructor and what kind of experience they have in the field.

 

Revit Forum is very active and has a lot of very intelligent people.

[tzframpton]

...what is actually driving this stuff. In Autocad if you want to do anything interesting you have to create blocks etc, here we are being given "blocks" but no concept of the underlying thought process, are there any resources that start with this basic stuff, like, what is a project?, what is a family? and what makes it tick.

The best way to approach this question is to first explain the 3 fundamental "type" of Families in Revit. You have System, Loadable and In-Place. Official reading material here:

https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/revit-products/learn-explore/caas/CloudHelp/cloudhelp/2016/ENU/Revit-Model/files/GUID-403FFEAE-BFF6-464D-BAC2-85BF3DAB3BA2-htm.html

 

The difference is System Families are "integrated" into Revit. It's always there and never not there. Think of it like the LINE tool in AutoCAD, you don't have to "load" it in for it to work. But one of Lee Mac's programs must be "loaded" into AutoCAD to work, hence "Loadable Families" in Revit. Anything not a System Family is inherently a Loadable Family, so you create/edit the Family in Revit's external Family Editor (much like editing Blocks in the Block Editor), while System Families are simply edited within the project. In-Place Families work like a Block in AutoCAD but edited via Reference Edit: it's created/edited directly in the project through a sub-editor, rather than the external Block Editor.

 

To get a great bird's eye view of what is "basic" in Revit, do this: create a new Project (File > New > Project) and in the Template Dropdown Selector, choose "None". This is basically "acad.dwt" for Revit - it's completely stripped with nothing loaded, an absolute bare Template file. From here, if you investigate the Project Browser, you'll see what Families are integrated into Revit, what Pipe/Duct/Electrical Systems are integrated into Revit, and so forth. This should give you an idea of what's been added to a Revit project if you're ever curious.

 

A second point, maybe linked, when drawing a detail, we are shown how to cover a lower portion of the wall insulation at the top of the foundation level with a region, so it looks like it would in normal construction, or the expansion joint around a floor slab, again is added as a region in the detail, sorry but this just feels like using overridden dimensions, surely there has to be a way to add this sort of detail into the wall/floor family. Or using a filled region to redraw a hatch pattern that "looks" nicer.

Yes, you can add these types of details to things like Walls, but you won't do this on every project, nor every wall. This is just a common "must" during the learning process, but don't take it as this is the only way you can do it. Just absorb the process so you know how to do it. You'll be able to apply this to many other things - they just use Walls as a foundation to teach the process.

 

For instance, I created a parametric Valve Body Family once, but the geometry was too complex for me to make it 3D in extreme detail, so I used Detail Component Families of the 2D DWG file from manufacturer's downloaded content, and used the proper size based on a formula. So the 3D Family was simple, but the projection of it in Plan and Elevation Views were very detailed.

 

Just one example is all. Hope all this helps some.

 

-TZ

[steven-g]

Thanks everyone for the responses, great information there, I probably am just being impatient, we actually skimmed over those fundamental "types" of Families this evening in the course, so I'll spend some time looking through that link Tanner cheers, and we got a bit of hands on editing of types as well (added a plaster layer to the wall - thats the sort of stuff I want to know, how the walls are built etc) I'm already reading up on Dynamo and the Revit API can't wait to get going with those. I have to be honest it is an awful lot of learning where buttons are at the moment but You have to start somewhere I suppose, I will definately check out the empty template to see whats in there in the background all the time.

 

I am learning the basics of Inventor as well, but I've taken to that like a duck to water.

[Dadgad]

Between learning those two, you are certainly expanding your horizons quite significantly, good luck with them!

[tzframpton]

Thanks everyone for the responses, great information there, I probably am just being impatient, we actually skimmed over those fundamental "types" of Families this evening in the course, so I'll spend some time looking through that link Tanner cheers, and we got a bit of hands on editing of types as well (added a plaster layer to the wall - thats the sort of stuff I want to know, how the walls are built etc) I'm already reading up on Dynamo and the Revit API can't wait to get going with those. I have to be honest it is an awful lot of learning where buttons are at the moment but You have to start somewhere I suppose, I will definately check out the empty template to see whats in there in the background all the time.

Glad it helped. Revit is massive and has a learning curve, especially coming from AutoCAD.

 

I am learning the basics of Inventor as well, but I've taken to that like a duck to water.

This doesn't surprise me. Inventor, to me, makes much more sense than Revit. Not because Revit is a bad program, but because Inventor is straight forward. Inventor isn't "specific" to any particular discipline like Revit is... Inventor is an open design application in many ways. It's simply parametric geometry. Well, it's much more than that, obviously, but on the basic level I mean. Revit on the other hand is "specific", so you must understand the background of certain things first before they become logical. It's certainly not a linear workflow right out of the box. This is the learning curve of Revit that gets most people.

 

Here's a for instance: in Revit there isn't an origin. There is, but not in the same way as AutoCAD or Inventor. And, unless you know to go turn on the Project Base Point and Survey Point in the Site sub-category, you're completely lost. And, since Revit is view-based, you can't see the "origin" in certain views if the view doesn't clip the origin. Things like this really spin people for a loop. Everyone wants an origin when they first go into Revit so they feel so lost when they can't find it.

 

Happy to see you advancing in both programs. Keep us posted and keep asking questions.

 

-TZ

[halam]

Revit indeed is very SPECIFIC and if you ask me it's for doing Buildings. To the majority of draftman this may seem as am open door, but you would be surprised how many people(like managers, salesman, ) think Revit the advantage for infra use also. But there is absolutly no 'system family' we can use. And as Tannar describes not having a coordinat system is one major pita that loeads to numerous workarounds. I have been workling with revit the past couple of years and i really !hate! this coordinat behaviour i can tell you. Revit has a name when it comes to warnings that are vague and even doubtable. Like this one..

 

 

It is trying to tell me Revit has a coordinat system (?! .. doesn't a coordinats suppose to be some kind of world / gis related ..imo..?) and Revit will now align the coordinat system of the DWG to the RVT project (..? revit will open the dwg and do some UCS settings ther, right ? what the f* is it doing. Result : good X,Y spot but the level is still sqrewed) I think nobody at autodesk really knows both these porgramms. That is one thing to consider mixing AutoCAD and Revit.

Edited October 11, 2016 by halam
pissed of because of coordinats

[steven-g]

I haven't gotten far enough to comment on the workings of Revit, I am a bit lost on some of the things we have been shown, but that is just down to experience and only having seen methods once, I'm fully hoping that once the logic clicks that it will all become clear . I will be fascinated to learn how furniture construction can be used within revit, and how much will be possible, will it be just a case of making sure things fit, and cooperation between trades, or will there be some way to enhance the design process and keep it all in Revit.

[RobDraw]

I had a good laugh when I first starting learning Revit. I was struggling with quite a few aspects with little to no support available and a new type of category was being introduced with the new version, entourage. 3D throw pillows was one of the examples. Throw pillows! I was having trouble figuring out how to make valve symbols look like our standard and they are making throw pillows.

[tzframpton]

I enjoyed the rant. And I agree with it 100%. Rants can be very informative as long as they stay honest.

 

-TZ

[steven-g]

I had a good laugh when I first starting learning Revit. I was struggling with quite a few aspects with little to no support available and a new type of category was being introduced with the new version, entourage. 3D throw pillows was one of the examples. Throw pillows! I was having trouble figuring out how to make valve symbols look like our standard and they are making throw pillows.

 

I like that one, we run multi-million projects, deadlines, penalty clauses, problems with sub contractors, and what causes the most stress in the office "who makes the coffee" and that is serious.

[f700es]

Stopped before it gets out of hand