ORgrown Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 Looking for some suggestions/ideas for showing what has been changed in a "live" as-built drawing so it is easier to QC the change and easier for construction to identify and construct per the new design. Currently: Asbuilt system maps of a telecommunications system are in continual flux of build/change. When new design is proposed, the system map is edited, white construction cloud notes are added with instructions, change circles in the color white (recently changed from the color green) are added and white leader lines from the cloud note to the circles are placed. Cloud Notes ALWAYS include the project job #. 1. Not all designers are clear in their cloud notes. 2. Not all designers are circling ALL NEW equipment/cables, but maybe only the CHANGED from the existing. 3. Cloud Notes are placed in very busy maps making them difficult to read, not necessarily near the change. 4. Some changes in addition to the project area can be thousands of feet away in a different part of the map, making finding the Construction Cloud Notes more difficult. *These notes currently remain in the asbuilt until they too are "as-built" edited so the notes, leaders, circles can be removed and since they are many times placed on top of other areas of information (addresses/streets/equipment), the cloud notes cannot have a wipeout behind)...or can they? If the as-builts are all DWFs with layers and the users can view the notes & freeze to see what's behind? Hmm... Suggested change that was recently implemented: After design, for the Project Drawing ONLY...ALL layers are changed to color white, then the designer picks the individual pieces of cable and equipment that are NEW or CHANGED and change those only to the color RED - including the Construction Cloud Notes, leader lines, and change circles. Problems: Some Design QCers are color-blind making the RED & BLACK very difficult for them to view; Some QCers simply find the color scheme contrast too difficult to view; any Visual QC has potential to miss wrongly drafted equipment (e.g. equipment that should be color green if chosen correctly, but red if incorrectly - since all colors are RED there's no way to determine if the equipment was chosen correctly without accessing the CAD file); QCers get trained to only QC by the color RED and if the designer failed to change ALL equipment to RED, it may be missed. However, not all QCers have a problem with the colors and many of the Construction Techs like the "pop" the RED & BLACK project maps provide - hoping to eliminate missed changes in another area of the map that didn't stand out. Maybe the current way of doing things is not broken but needs fine tuning? Definitely the Black & X color project drawing is going to be an issue for those QCers who are color-blind and/or those who have contrast sensitivity. I, and several others, are working to provide alternatives, suggestions, ideas and I wondered how others may be depicting changes to drawings. Thank you for any feedback/suggestions the forum may have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyberAngel Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 Someone's sure to have a better idea but... Can you export your features to a spreadsheet (or group of spreadsheets)? You can then track changes between versions and print a list of what changed. It would probably help to store some kind of key/address with each item so that your QC people can locate them quickly. The Dataextraction command, for instance, can give you a list of blocks with attributes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzframpton Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 Wow, that's a lot of process. My only comment is: an as-built is a final product and should not go through any phases or stages whatsoever. As-built is literally "as it was built", therefore a final record drawing. -TZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORgrown Posted October 9, 2018 Author Share Posted October 9, 2018 11 hours ago, CyberAngel said: Someone's sure to have a better idea but... Can you export your features to a spreadsheet (or group of spreadsheets)? You can then track changes between versions and print a list of what changed. It would probably help to store some kind of key/address with each item so that your QC people can locate them quickly. The Dataextraction command, for instance, can give you a list of blocks with attributes. Hi CyberAngel. Unfortunately, the designers aren't necessarily "CAD" people. The drafting program uses AutoCAD as a platform, but anything CAD related is not retained in the program. Exporting features to a spreadsheet would need someone who's CAD-savy and then QCers would be using a spreadsheet instead of the map to QC? Not sure that is a do-able situation in this instance. I really appreciate your reply. Anything can trigger a suggestion or build upon it. Just trying to come up with something other than RED and BLACK to look at for our color blind users and those who have contrast issues - and not necessarily just opting to change the colors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORgrown Posted October 9, 2018 Author Share Posted October 9, 2018 1 hour ago, tzframpton said: Wow, that's a lot of process. My only comment is: an as-built is a final product and should not go through any phases or stages whatsoever. As-built is literally "as it was built", therefore a final record drawing. -TZ Hey TZ, Normally, yes, an "asbuilt" is a done deal/final product. However, in the utility/telecom fields, the system maps are constantly changing. There are always new customers, new subdivisions, and new buildings being built daily. There are pole lines being removed and the plant being then placed underground for road widening or beautification, etc. There is truly nothing "as-built" forever in my industry! Even with a project design and "asbuilt" - there could be another customer added in the building which requires another piece of equipment....or technology changes can change the entire design....fiber versus coaxial cable...a later project could affect this current one...many reasons why the asbuilt will most likely not stay the same. Never a dull moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLW210 Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 They now have corrective lenses for red-green colorblindness. There are some Apps now that help colorblind people identify colors, not sure how good those work. Some industries are just not cut out for color blindness and out right banned and/or restricted for a few occupations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzframpton Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 11 hours ago, ORgrown said: Hey TZ, Normally, yes, an "asbuilt" is a done deal/final product. However, in the utility/telecom fields, the system maps are constantly changing. There are always new customers, new subdivisions, and new buildings being built daily. There are pole lines being removed and the plant being then placed underground for road widening or beautification, etc. There is truly nothing "as-built" forever in my industry! Even with a project design and "asbuilt" - there could be another customer added in the building which requires another piece of equipment....or technology changes can change the entire design....fiber versus coaxial cable...a later project could affect this current one...many reasons why the asbuilt will most likely not stay the same. Never a dull moment. Oh man, I can't even imagine. I can see the pickle this can be. I remember when I relocated my small office down the hall to a new office twice the size, the communications company ran a new fiber line to my new office (50ft away) instead of relocating it. But, they had to drive down to the next intersection and swap cables. All for a simple relocated office. Sounds like it's just a constant continuation of work. Wonder why as-built is even a part of the process, ha. -TZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Clayton Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 I may be out of my depth here because doing mechanical drafting, I tend to shy away from layers...but are Rev. Triangles not an option? Two cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORgrown Posted October 12, 2018 Author Share Posted October 12, 2018 1 hour ago, Jim Clayton said: I may be out of my depth here because doing mechanical drafting, I tend to shy away from layers...but are Rev. Triangles not an option? Two cents. There are already Construction Note Clouds with instructions for construction changes. My industry really doesn't use rev triangles. I brought it up in the meeting Monday as an option, but it was dismissed. Management wants something that "pops"...and color seems to do it. Stating accessibility for all means color and contrast must be addressed for all users...so they're looking for another color other than red. Sigh... Rev Triangles would still need to be found in a cluster of information and equipment so I think they would get lost unless a "notes" page would also be employed. That's where it changes the simple const drawings into a complete "package" that they don't want to use. Whether or not it makes sense, it's how it is/has been in my industry. Thank you for your input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyberAngel Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 Here's another suggestion. Wherever you add a note, use Background Mask for the text. You'll probably need to experiment with the colors to get good contrast, and you may need a bit of code to remove it afterward, but a dark block with light text in it should stand out. A wipeout might be a better idea, since it's separate from the text. Since you're dealing with a large area, you could add a large object to make your work easy to find. I call this a "blimp." Put the blimp in a large open area where it won't obscure anything else. Give it a distinctive shape and color. Draw a leader from the blimp to the area of interest. Include grips on the blimp so your people don't waste time looking for the ends of the leaders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGAL Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 Are you not putting all of the as built into a GIS system ? So your autocad DWG is a part that gets inserted, a simplistic view would be two layers items to be removed, items to be added. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyberAngel Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 One more suggestion. Create a new drawing for the changes. Put the obsolete items on their own layer(s). Xref that drawing into a new one that will contain the new items. You can then control the transparency of the existing and demolished equipment. When you're ready to replace the demolition, delete that layer and paste the new drawing into the main drawing. This scheme also gives you the option to xref the construction drawing into the main drawing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORgrown Posted October 15, 2018 Author Share Posted October 15, 2018 On 10/12/2018 at 7:23 AM, CyberAngel said: Here's another suggestion. Wherever you add a note, use Background Mask for the text. You'll probably need to experiment with the colors to get good contrast, and you may need a bit of code to remove it afterward, but a dark block with light text in it should stand out. A wipeout might be a better idea, since it's separate from the text. Since you're dealing with a large area, you could add a large object to make your work easy to find. I call this a "blimp." Put the blimp in a large open area where it won't obscure anything else. Give it a distinctive shape and color. Draw a leader from the blimp to the area of interest. Include grips on the blimp so your people don't waste time looking for the ends of the leaders. Yes, I like this idea and I've mentioned this in the meeting to use a wipeout/mask behind the construction cloud notes to help make it "pop" and not be impaired by other symbols, text, etc that may be on top of the cloud notes. When the DWF is used, they can turn off the cloud note layer to see what's behind the wipeout if it's important to know. Unfortunately, the "blimps" or note clouds cannot be placed in any open area of the drawing. Well, I take that back...for the DWF creation, they CAN be placed anywhere, but the final drawing must be saved with the cloud notes INSIDE a boundary line. The software being used renders by boundary line and so anything that is located OUTSIDE this boundary ends up in the boundary of the adjacent drawing! Even if created in the initial boundary drawing and associated with...it will not show next time that drawing boundary is rendered. Ridiculous programming IMO...but that's what we're stuck with.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORgrown Posted October 15, 2018 Author Share Posted October 15, 2018 4 hours ago, CyberAngel said: One more suggestion. Create a new drawing for the changes. Put the obsolete items on their own layer(s). Xref that drawing into a new one that will contain the new items. You can then control the transparency of the existing and demolished equipment. When you're ready to replace the demolition, delete that layer and paste the new drawing into the main drawing. This scheme also gives you the option to xref the construction drawing into the main drawing. Lots of CAD work for many people who really are NOT CAD people! They are software-specifically trained. The software used AutoCAD as a platform and uses about 10% of its capabilities, so really, no AutoCAD experience or expertise is required as the program functions are specifically taught. Also the company wants all the changed information on the live as-builts...yes, it's not really there and like that, but that's what the note clouds and "change circles" are for... Just how they do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORgrown Posted October 15, 2018 Author Share Posted October 15, 2018 On 10/13/2018 at 3:42 PM, BIGAL said: Are you not putting all of the as built into a GIS system ? So your autocad DWG is a part that gets inserted, a simplistic view would be two layers items to be removed, items to be added. Yes, it's GIS; however AutoCAD is the platform used by another program. It is not inserted, it is scraped in and just LOOKS like it's AutoCAD, but it's not...it's all vertices and points and coordinates and lines. The two-layer system is interesting. One I brought up was to use a layer/single color for DESIGNED equipment, then change it to the "correct" layers/colors after the construction asbuilt for AS-BUILT equipment. This is really going outside of the way it has been done for probably decades, so I'm not sure how it will be received. Thank you for the suggestion! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKM User Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 With 35 years doing field work, requiring as-builts to be produced by myself and my field staff in addition to a current position as quality control I feel reasonably qualified to interject here. "As Built documents" have always been a moment captured in time and subject to change anytime after that moment. Putting new components, circuits or any notes on a separate layer(s) will assist the "QCers" locate and check the changes. If circuits or components are removed or abandoned they can also be moved to a different layer(s). If the CAD file are being viewed digitally changing the background screen color will also help provide greater contrast. (The old black screen works very well with colors.) As for staff not making all the changes in the correct color Quality Control can only do so much, it must rely on others presenting the data in a "reasonably" correct format. There is an old adage, 'Junk in Junk out.' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORgrown Posted February 3, 2020 Author Share Posted February 3, 2020 3 hours ago, SKM User said: With 35 years doing field work, requiring as-builts to be produced by myself and my field staff in addition to a current position as quality control I feel reasonably qualified to interject here. "As Built documents" have always been a moment captured in time and subject to change anytime after that moment. Putting new components, circuits or any notes on a separate layer(s) will assist the "QCers" locate and check the changes. If circuits or components are removed or abandoned they can also be moved to a different layer(s). If the CAD file are being viewed digitally changing the background screen color will also help provide greater contrast. (The old black screen works very well with colors.) As for staff not making all the changes in the correct color Quality Control can only do so much, it must rely on others presenting the data in a "reasonably" correct format. There is an old adage, 'Junk in Junk out.' Hey SKM User. Thank you for your valuable input from decades of experience! (Would like to know your field of experience and location as I'm always looking for good asbuilt surveyors/fielders!) Personally, I too like the idea of new equipment on its own "Design" layer (and all the same color), then when built, changing to each component to its appropriate ("asbuilt") layer. Regarding changing background for contrast, the DWF is created with white background for QC/printing. The true red/black schematic drawing on stark white background kills the eyes for contrast and obviously causes an issue for the color blind folks. A different shade of red helps, but I could not convince the decision-makers. Using a screen filter through Windows helps a bit for the contrast issue - but then the QCer has to continuously change the filter back and forth from QC vs documentation, emails, production, etc. Changing the DWF background to Black - that poses a problem for printing for Construction, and continues to be an issue for the contrast/color-blind folks. Your adage is one we unfortunately are stuck with and it is frustrating. Fortunately, I am no longer working on this project and don't have to worry anymore about lack of accessibility due to the color scheme. Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKM User Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 I spent a number of years as a Construction Industrial/Commercial Electrician (15), Project Foreman (15) and Project Supervisor (10). As far as area, I work in the Kansas City, Missouri area and am very satisfied with my current employer and position. thank you for your interest. I am not opposed to further communication on the subject could be done outside the forum. Always like to make new friends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzframpton Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 On 2/3/2020 at 1:58 PM, SKM User said: I spent a number of years as a Construction Industrial/Commercial Electrician (15), Project Foreman (15) and Project Supervisor (10). As far as area, I work in the Kansas City, Missouri area and am very satisfied with my current employer and position. thank you for your interest. I am not opposed to further communication on the subject could be done outside the forum. Always like to make new friends. Congrats on the recent Superbowl win. ;-) -TZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ammobake Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 There are CAD programs designed to update complex telecom systems specifically that also can work seemlessly with existing GIS data. I haven't worked with them personally but some military branches use this type of software. I don't know the name of the program but I think it is a system designed specifically for them and it is linked to a system similar to a cloud. A basic explanation would be that a master base map of all telecom infractucture on a given installation is maintained showing everything for the entire facility. An example, simplified, workflow for a fiber project would be as follows... When a new project is proposed, the project manager will use the existing master file to create a design consisting of a detail or "blown-up" portion of the master file with the proposed changes overlaying the existing base map. The software can export the design to DWG - although not completely seemlessly - so a PDF is usually what is used. The government will review the existing conditions and then sign off on a dig permit. Once the project is complete, the contractor provides an asbuilt drawing to the government, they do final inspection, and the military then updates the master file to correspond with that drawing - making the necessary changes to the master file. Each piece of infrastructure in this software can have an entire history you can view in text format (similar to your system) including readdressing and other important info. But at all times the map is current. At any given time multiple users can be updating the map, adding notes, changing things, etc. Other master files are also maintained in Autocad for an installation - just because they are better suited for those items. For example, utilidors, storm sewer infrastrufcture, etc... can be mapped in the field, GIS data imported and a single master file maintained for those specific systems on an installation. These base maps can then be used to make decisions for changes and/or inform designers for future projects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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