ReMark Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 "The only difference between Quadro/GeForce is drivers." Are you sure? What two cards are you actually comparing? Names would help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viper04 Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 ATI’s Radeon X1800 to FireGL V7350, FireGL V7700 is a Radeon HD 3870, GeForce 9800 to Quadro FX 5800 just to name a few. Google it and you'd be surprised with the results. The reason the cost so much more for the Profession cards is due to the extensive testing of the drivers with apps like 3DS Max, Maya ect. I find gaming cards more that adequate enough for what I need to use them for (3D Rendering, Animation, Photoshop). Unless you pay for the premium stuff and have no budget and can put down $5000 for the new Quadro cards I would put my money else where in the machine and V-Card is mainily for Viewports and working with 3D rather than the actuall rendering part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReMark Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Then you're saying there is no physical differences between the cards as for example between the amount and type of vidRAM? What about differences between processor cores, memory interface and memory bandwidth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manhattan Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 im sure this cant be true. yes im well aware you can soft-mod a gaming card to its firefl / quadro counterpart but surely there must be some physical difference. I dont pretend to know all that much about workstation cards but my boss is always going on about dedicated pipelines for specific software on such cards. oh and btw at home i run 2 x bfg tech 8800gtx in sli (a little dated now i know) and at work i have a quadro fx 570. both the machines are similarly specced and the work machine copes LOTS better with large cad drawings & models. as for the huge costs of workstation cards, check out the second hand market. you would not believe how much they drop in price Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f700es Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 I also don't agree with this. I too use a quadro at work and it light years faster at CAD and 3D than my geforce 6600gt. But the GF plays games better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzframpton Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Hardware specs are generally the same, its the extensions that drive it. Games use DirectX. AutoCAD uses OpenGL (the full app, not the MiniGL extensions). The Quadros are equipped with the full OpenGL application extensions that utilize the full *.HDI driver. "Gaming" cards do not take advantage of this. because most games are programmed for DirectX, which is Microsoft's hardware app extensions. I went from a GeForce 7300GT to a QuadroFX 1700, and a WORRRRLD of difference in all my 3D drawings in AutoCAD & Revit. Never will I go back to a gaming card, softmodded or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzframpton Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 In fact, I went and did a comparison between the two cards. My co-worker got my old 7300GT as a handme down, so I ran a utility to check on each of the card's capabilities. My FX1700 has 26 more OpenGL extensions than the 7300GT, not to mention the maximum texture size is 8192x8192 where as the 7300GT is only 4096x4096. Both are running the most up to date version of OpenGL. The extensions included some light and vertex shaders, as well as some depth shaders and fog renderers, texture capabilities, and a few more frame buffers. So there's definitely an inherit difference between a gaming card and a workstation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viper04 Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 I went from a GeForce 7300GT to a QuadroFX 1700, and a WORRRRLD of difference in all my 3D drawings in AutoCAD & Revit. Never will I go back to a gaming card, softmodded or not. No kidding u see a difference! 7300GT is not even a decent gaming card its a low-end card u get with Dell comps. Compare The Quadro FX 1700 to a ATI 4870 / 2GB Ram for less money then u'll see you wasted your money on the 1700. Then you're saying there is no physical differences between the cards as for example between the amount and type of vidRAM? What about differences between processor cores, memory interface and memory bandwidth? Yes NO PHYSICAL difference between COMPARABLE ie Same chip cards. That's why when you softmode them all you do is change the BIOS on the chip which enables you do install the DRIVERS which is the single most important factor. The ONLY time I would buy a Pro Card is if my application ONLY using OpenGL ie. Solid Works. The majority of pro apps, ie AutoDesk Apps all have DirectX which performs better than OpenGL in majority of cases. I have done soft modding to see if this was true and yes it is. I have completed benchmarking tests in 3DS Max, AutoCAD & Maya. I don't bother with soft modding much any more as all my machines run on Vista 64 (soon to be Windows 7 64bit) using DirectX and the latest "gaming" drivers and I have never had problems with my assemblies (commercial buildings, residential stuff). What are the specs of your guys machines that run Quadros? CPU, RAM (speed, latency & Amount), Motherboard, Hard drive, OS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viper04 Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 In fact, I went and did a comparison between the two cards. My co-worker got my old 7300GT as a handme down, so I ran a utility to check on each of the card's capabilities. My FX1700 has 26 more OpenGL extensions than the 7300GT, not to mention the maximum texture size is 8192x8192 where as the 7300GT is only 4096x4096. Both are running the most up to date version of OpenGL. You are comparing two completely different technologies here. Try comparing it to a card at least in the same chip family as the 1700 ie G92 or 8 series.. so something like a GeForce 9800GTX. Its probably comparable to a $140 8800GT card. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viper04 Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 AutoCAD uses OpenGL (the full app, not the MiniGL extensions). um are you still using AutoCAD realease 12?? Almost all AutoDesk projects use OpenGL (which is old and crappy and doesn't work very well with Vista) and DirectX. DirectX runs twice as fast on the majority of benchs I have done with my Quadro 1500 card. No put in a decent "gaming" card and it kills the Quadro cards. From what I gather this soft modding thing is starting to change in regards to the upper ULTRA High-End Quadro / FirePro as they are making changes they keep their huge business in pro cards because most people using Autodesk apps and don't build computer will think hey, it says I need this so I guess I'll expenses it. If you are a business owner and understand how computers function and can build/overclock components and don't have a HUGE expenses account you'll understand then. My day job has all Quadro 1500 in their machines. My side job has high end gaming cards. As soon as I start Orbiting on my Quadro 1500 cards in my office it goes straight to Wireframe unless I disable the Adaptive which makes it crash... At home it runs smooth as butter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzframpton Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 You are comparing two completely different technologies here. Try comparing it to a card at least in the same chip family as the 1700 ie G92 or 8 series.. so something like a GeForce 9800GTX. Its probably comparable to a $140 8800GT card. I have a 4850 at home, doesn't run as good as my Quadro FX 1700 at work. We've seen your type on these boards before... you're a fanboy of gaming cards that can prove themselves worthy, and thats fine and dandy. But there are also other things to consider... Not just FPS when 3D Orbiting around an object, but most gaming cards have a nasty refreshing effect of the 3D crosshairs in AutoCAD. Also, I've experienced first hand what a gaming card does in Revit.... OMFG don't even get me started on that subject. A gaming card wouldn't even allow selection properties of certin editable objects in revit, but alas, soon as we upgraded to a workstation level graphics card ALL REVIT PROBLEMS WENT AWAY. Period. In my office, I have experienced first hand the differences between a gaming card and a workstation between all my guys here who run all our CAD apps. I see the certified hardware list on Autodesk's website and I see that gaming cards are coming into the mix. Fine... sweet... awesome. You can come in here and rant and rave all you want about how much better a gaming card is. But I am not convinced by your persuasions at all. Workstations just work. No tampering needed. No I.T. department being called because of an update in AutoCAD knocked out a once certified *.HDI driver down to a non-standard, under performing graphics accelerator. Not in this office. But glad to know that you can get good performance out of a gaming card, at an expense of about 120+ Watts vs my FX1700 that doesn't get over 45 Watts under full load. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viper04 Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 We've seen your type on these boards before... you're a fanboy of gaming cards that can prove themselves worthy, and thats fine and dandy. But there are also other things to consider... Not just FPS when 3D Orbiting around an object, but most gaming cards have a nasty refreshing effect of the 3D crosshairs in AutoCAD. Also, I've experienced first hand what a gaming card does in Revit.... OMFG don't even get me started on that subject. A gaming card wouldn't even allow selection properties of certin editable objects in revit, but alas, soon as we upgraded to a workstation level graphics card ALL REVIT PROBLEMS WENT AWAY. Period. I'm not a "fanboy" I have just come to the conclusion for the apps I run, AutoCAD, 3DS Max, Maya that I can use gaming cards and save my company some money they can spend on something like ummm new CPU, more RAM ect. I don't run Revit and I believe its an OpenGL program like Solid Works so of course you had proboblems, I wouldn't even touch a gaming card for something like that. Switch over to Max, Maya and AutoCAD well thats a different story as DirectX performs well in them. Are you running Vista at your office or still XP? For the saving of $2500 for a higher end Quadro I can handle some little imperfections with cross hairs (which I might add have problems in AutoCAD on my Quadro 1500 and screen artifacts). My point is but the hardware that you require to do your job at a specific level with a reasonable budget in mind that works best for the software you use. You don't need a Quadro to run AutoCAD nor should you, unless you need to keep up the "game face" so your boses don't realize your wasting money. Back to the opp, he is wanting something for AutoCAD NOT Revit and with the mid to lower end machine he is running don't bother with a Quadro... put it towards a better CPU and 8+GB of high performance RAM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viper04 Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Resuming all this: OS: 64-Bit XP Pro Graphics Card: nVidia Quadro Fx570 512MB RAM: 8 GB DDR2 800MHz PC2-6400 Motherboard: Nvidia nForce 680i SLI 3xPCIe Case: Antek P182 We use the P182 cases and I don't recommend them at all. Yes they are nice for the noise but freakin heavy. Also opening and closing the Front door to turn the machine on/off becomes a pain and my drafters end up leaving it open (which makes it louder and allowes more dust in which is huge for use becasue we are a precast concrete plant so I have to clean out the comps every month or so becasue of the concrete dust.) Also make sure your power supply will fit inside. We had to remove the FAN housing to allow for a large power supplies to fit inside and its still pretty cramp and not much air flow around the hard drives to keep them cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzframpton Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 I'm not a "fanboy" I have just come to the conclusion for the apps I run, AutoCAD, 3DS Max, Maya that I can use gaming cards and save my company some money they can spend on something like ummm new CPU, more RAM ect. I don't run Revit and I believe its an OpenGL program like Solid Works so of course you had proboblems, I wouldn't even touch a gaming card for something like that. Switch over to Max, Maya and AutoCAD well thats a different story as DirectX performs well in them. Are you running Vista at your office or still XP? For the saving of $2500 for a higher end Quadro I can handle some little imperfections with cross hairs (which I might add have problems in AutoCAD on my Quadro 1500 and screen artifacts). My point is but the hardware that you require to do your job at a specific level with a reasonable budget in mind that works best for the software you use. You don't need a Quadro to run AutoCAD nor should you, unless you need to keep up the "game face" so your boses don't realize your wasting money. Back to the opp, he is wanting something for AutoCAD NOT Revit and with the mid to lower end machine he is running don't bother with a Quadro... put it towards a better CPU and 8+GB of high performance RAM. What's all this $2,500 business? the same videocard I have is $434 on Newegg. And trust me... this guy might want something for AutoCAD only, but I'll be you bottom dollar that he doesn't want to spend the time tinkering with a gaming card to softmod it into a "workstation" level graphics card. That is for experienced users who are tech buffs, like yourself. And if a company can't fork out less than $500 for a graphics card, well then.... maybe they need to budget more and get with the program. And my comment about the crosshairs, that was one gripe of many. And when a 3D crosshair "multiplys and sticks" onto the screen every other frame, you cannot even see what you are drawing, much less the rest of the annoyances that come with a gaming card. That's right.... GAMING CARD. Not CAD WORKSTATION. Hey you can tow a ten thousand pound trailer with a "modded" V6 truck, but wouldn't you rather have a Powerstroke V8 that's built for hauling loads? I hope you're getting my drift here..... I'm not saying what you are offering isn't true at all. I'm just saying you are not giving credit for a workstation graphics card. They do work much better than a gaming card, and I have seen it first hand. Workstations don't need any tinkering, and you can go budget for a good one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viper04 Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 One last thing is for AutoCAD my 8800GT isn't softmodded and it runs better than my Quadro 1500 but maybe that's just me. Just suggestion to the OP that there is alternatives that will do just fine for AutoCAD in 3D. I mainly use mine for Arch AutoCAD but yea.... just be happy we the choices you make and everything will be fine. done and done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f700es Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Well I don't spec machines to run what I am using now I spec them in hopes of being on track for at least 3 updates on my software. Seeing the jump from AutoCAD 2008 to 2009 one can only guess as to what the next step will be. I have a 4850 at home, doesn't run as good as my Quadro FX 1700 at work. We've seen your type on these boards before... you're a fanboy of gaming cards that can prove themselves worthy, and thats fine and dandy. But there are also other things to consider... Not just FPS when 3D Orbiting around an object, but most gaming cards have a nasty refreshing effect of the 3D crosshairs in AutoCAD. Also, I've experienced first hand what a gaming card does in Revit.... OMFG don't even get me started on that subject. A gaming card wouldn't even allow selection properties of certin editable objects in revit, but alas, soon as we upgraded to a workstation level graphics card ALL REVIT PROBLEMS WENT AWAY. Period. In my office, I have experienced first hand the differences between a gaming card and a workstation between all my guys here who run all our CAD apps. I see the certified hardware list on Autodesk's website and I see that gaming cards are coming into the mix. Fine... sweet... awesome. You can come in here and rant and rave all you want about how much better a gaming card is. But I am not convinced by your persuasions at all. Workstations just work. No tampering needed. No I.T. department being called because of an update in AutoCAD knocked out a once certified *.HDI driver down to a non-standard, under performing graphics accelerator. Not in this office. But glad to know that you can get good performance out of a gaming card, at an expense of about 120+ Watts vs my FX1700 that doesn't get over 45 Watts under full load. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f700es Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 You are comparing two completely different technologies here. Try comparing it to a card at least in the same chip family as the 1700 ie G92 or 8 series.. so something like a GeForce 9800GTX. Its probably comparable to a $140 8800GT card. Just to be far you are also not comparing apples to apples yourself :wink: Your 8800GT has a G92 GPU while the FX1500 has a G71 GPU. The 8800 is also a year newer too. It also has PCIe 2.0 interface so it will have a faster interface with the system. IIRC 2.0 is twice as fast as 1.0 (500mb/s to 250 mb/s). Yeah I looked it up I have wanted to softmod my GF at home but I am too chicken! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viper04 Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Your 8800GT has a G92 GPU while the FX1500 has a G71 GPU. The 8800 is also a year newer too. It also has PCIe 2.0 interface so it will have a faster interface with the system. IIRC 2.0 is twice as fast as 1.0 (500mb/s to 250 mb/s). Yeah I looked it up You are right about that! Because Pro cards typically come out after gaming cards and if you buy something decent, the way the trend is the gaming card will typically always be a version/tech ahead of the pro card due to the extensive testing on pro cards. I had nothing else to compare the 1500 to but I figured at the price point comparison at the time of purchase it was accurate but you are right they are in different families. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzframpton Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 You are right about that! Because Pro cards typically come out after gaming cards and if you buy something decent, the way the trend is the gaming card will typically always be a version/tech ahead of the pro card due to the extensive testing on pro cards..... I would argue that the gaming industry is simply more marketable. If I was CEO of Nvidia/ATI then I would put more engineering resources into the industry that brought in more revenue, and had a higher demand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack_O'neill Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Wow...after reading all this, I'm feeling left behind again. I just did a video card upgrade (Geforce 8400gs) to this computer and was pleased with the results in that it was a considerable improvement over what I had. After reading all this, I wonder what I'm missing. This machine is two years old and was a bargain purchase at Best Buy then. Even at that, it ran faster and with less problems than the machine I had at my previous employer. They did mostly 2d stuff, but if I did have to do any 3d stuff I'd wait till I got home to do it here simply because this one would out perform what we had there (leased Lenovos). May have to see what else I can do to it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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