BIM marches on...

[Geoffers]

Half of US Construction Industry Now Using BIM - it says...

 

 

http://www.excitech.co.uk/news/mcgraw-hill.asp?R_id=&cc=em090930b&vk=63047628488

[SuperCAD]

I have yet to read anything that clearly explains what BIM is and how to implement it. Everything I've read so far just talks in circles about how important it is and how it will become the standard way for creating construction documents, but no one goes into specifics. Does anyone really understand what BIM is, or is it just a new catch phrase that people are throwing around?

[Guest looseLISPSsinkSHIPS]

Building information models are new 3D standards also to be introduced into the European Union. Basically it’s a shared (networked real-time 3D model of a building construction where the electrician enters his details, the plumber hers and the carpenter theirs at the top of every building Information model pyramid sits the Architectural firm responsible for the design.

Lets say modifications are required due to legislation regarding natural light and the architect relines the design so that the bathroom is small the tiller and the plumber would also know straight away. Kind of like a virtual construction sight that’s designed to focally take out the errors before they occur in a real world scenario. This saves not only money but also time as no more nasty surprise could be waiting for unsuspecting contractors.

The BIM story has also lead to talk of possible production line homes. Where whole house segments are built at a “factory location” example a kitchen, where the BIM story is now so efficient that a contractor could realistically roster allocated times for the electrician to come and a plumber to fit in at just the right time and so on.

Housing is now becoming more product than anything else..

[NBC]

I've been working in the Engineering Industry since I left school 20 years ago, and have never ever come across a BIM model; nor have I heard of many companies who actually produce/utilise them on projects.

 

I think in its' present state, BIM is more concept than anything that is usable in the real world economic environment.

[Noahma]

I have yet to ready anything that clearly explains what BIM is and how to implement it. Everything I've read so far just talks in circles about how important it is and how it will become the standard way for creating construction documents, but no one goes into specifics. Does anyone really understand what BIM is, or is it just a new catch phrase that people are throwing around?

 

if you manage to find a copy of Mastering Revit Architecture 2010 (just to read) There is an incredibly good description of the BIM workflow within it. The big thing with BIM is the I for information. The building model is pretty powerful, but it reaches its full potential when it includes the information on what makes the part you are looking at

[Noahma]

I've been working in the Engineering Industry since I left school 20 years ago, and have never ever come across a BIM model; nor have I heard of many companies who actually produce/utilise them on projects.

 

I think in its' present state, BIM is more concept than anything that is usable in the real world economic environment.

 

BIM works EXTREMELY well in a multi-disciplinary office. For the mom and pop shop sized firms, it well... is not packed with enough information. One of the big downfalls is the software. There are more than just revit which follow the BIM workflow (yes, it includes ACA, and Archicad) the problem comes with software computability, with say Revit, every discipline needs to be on the EXACT same version of the software as there is no backwards compatibility between versions. This gives the big guys that have electrical / structural and Construction all in the same office.

 

Our office is more or less using BIM. We still do the majority of our designs in 2d, but have full capability per client request to do BIM with the design.

[Big_Mark]

We've sent 3 jobs out using RevitMEP, we have 4 more coming in, one of them is using Bentleys version of BIM.

 

The cool thing is you build a model, then extract the views from the model. No more draw the Plan, then draw the elevations one at a time. Revit is really taking off, not necessarily because it's the best but because people are behind it, the hype has pushed the product it seems.

[stevsmith]

I find this whole BIM technology a bit of a mystery.

 

When has anything that has been desinged in theory every actually work on site.

 

Every building site that I have to visit for site surveying has always been different to what has been shown on Architects drawings. Fair enough, it can be close. But what about revision changes that have to be carried out during the last week of the site build. It takes the Architect or enginerr 2 weeks to reply when the building contractor needs it done yesterday.

 

My impression is that Autodesk (as usual) have bummed this product up.

Launch a product with no backwards compatability so subscription is taken to keep up with the latest release. it seems that they have adopted the footballers approach. More money, less heart.

[tzframpton]

Every building site that I have to visit for site surveying has always been different to what has been shown on Architects drawings. Fair enough, it can be close. But what about revision changes that have to be carried out during the last week of the site build. It takes the Architect or engineer 2 weeks to reply when the building contractor needs it done yesterday.

Last job I did that was a BIM coordination from ground up went very well. Little to no mistakes in the field. It only happens when all trades are on board, honestly.

 

My impression is that Autodesk (as usual) have bummed this product up. Launch a product with no backwards compatibility so subscription is taken to keep up with the latest release. it seems that they have adopted the footballers approach. More money, less heart.

Well, Autodesk and other software companies might provide the software, but this is all relative to the market from your statement. There are some mechanical bids that come through my office the require Revit platform CAD files to be provided, or you're not even eligible for bid of the job. I am waiting for the free market over in my country (and more specifically my city) in the years to come to decide how things will go. Lots of potential in BIM, but a looooong way to go still.

[Noahma]

Last job I did that was a BIM coordination from ground up went very well. Little to no mistakes in the field. It only happens when all trades are on board, honestly.

 

Well, Autodesk and other software companies might provide the software, but this is all relative to the market from your statement. There are some mechanical bids that come through my office the require Revit platform CAD files to be provided, or you're not even eligible for bid of the job. I am waiting for the free market over in my country (and more specifically my city) in the years to come to decide how things will go. Lots of potential in BIM, but a looooong way to go still.

 

You certainly are right when you say that all trades need to be on board. The problems come in when you work for a small firm such as mine, where you work with many different companies that offer the other trades such as HVAC and electrical. They are not all under our roof, therefore coordination regarding a BIM model comes with more difficulties. Especially when say REVIT has absolutely no backwards computability. I think one way Autodesk would benifit the BIM approach to design would find a way to allow for backward computability, even if it was limited. The single item of no backwards compatibility has pushed our company to stick with Autocad Architecture, there IS limited backward compatibility within that platform.

[Teeds]

For most folks 3D means they keep their notes on the chunk of 2x4 that is laying on the seat next to them in their office ... aka ... truck.

 

Sure it will help, but the diminishing level of return verses cost will never likely drive the process down to the lower levels of construction.

 

As others have said, BIM can be a great thing assuming everyone is on board on the process, but this drills down to the construction subcontractor level ultimately and even then the process is usually found only in the office.

 

There is no substitute for actual construction experience and the ability to visualize an assembly in 3D in your head.

[tzframpton]

BIM is not just 3D. It's so much more, technically. Revit MEP for mechanical engineers get to use BIM for automatically running energy analysis and building loads and all the jazz. In theory it automates things and makes the information much more available for use, but still far from perfected.

[Teeds]

BIM is not just 3D. It's so much more, technically. Revit MEP for mechanical engineers get to use BIM for automatically running energy analysis and building loads and all the jazz. In theory it automates things and makes the information much more available for use, but still far from perfected.

 

I know it is far more than "just" 3D, but the power of the entire idea is driven by the idea that it models the entire building in 3D. This opens up many new avenues of information. Clearly, energy analysis is one, another is structural modeling, conflict analysis etc. Revit does many of those, but BIM is more.

 

All of this depends upon the "worker bee" that sits at the terminal knowing what he is looking at which gets back to my point that visualization is the key to success.

 

I'm sure you can point to some clueless folks in the biz here that have no clue what the lines on the screen really are ... edges ... not objects. The object inhabits the space between the lines.

 

I'm not saying that BIM isn't good and doesn't make sense at many levels, but at what point does it fall apart. For me, it begins to fall apart when you move from paper to reality.

 

I have seen all too many projects go completely off track during execution because the detailing was not thought through.

 

There is a mistake in the brickwork of North Dallas High on the McKinney side that is the result of not imagining the consequences of a change in 3D, a change that could have been caught had someone understood what would occur when the floor level was raised.

 

Laboratories are great for some things, but construction is not one of them.

 

I still use standard AutoCAD because it is adequate for my work, the majority of which is historic preservation. I do not ever see the need for Revit or BIM in HP. Frankly, the client will not pay for it.

 

Many architects have a difficult time convincing clients to pay for renderings. I surmise that Revit and BIM fit into this same pot IF you exclude the sophisticated clients like Baylor et al.

 

Now ... when government starts mandating energy modeling etc. all bets are off.

[Teeds]

Owners — What Should You Do About BIM?

by Dennis Neeley, AIA

 

 

Owners are hearing about projects coming in at 10% lower than budgeted when architects and engineers created their drawings and specifications using BIM as their modeling tool. We are now getting early reports of projects coming in at 20% lower than budgeted when IPD (Integrated Project Delivery) is used on a project; this is where the contractors and sub-contractors add detailed construction modeling to the architects and engineers BIM projects prior to bidding and construction. Conflicts are worked out in the model and not in the field. Prefabrication is possible because dimensions are very accurate and there is confidence that the prefabricated items will fit. Owners are also starting to realize that if they have many architects working on their projects they are not getting an integrated set of data from the collection of projects, and therefore, the downstream value of the BIM projects for facilities management, operations and maintenance is compromised.

 

click to continue

 

 

A very interesting article about BIM that brings out some interesting points.

 

 

I would like to see the data to back up the 20% savings mentioned, because that could amount to huge amount saved. I can't help but wonder where all the subs are going to find the pixel pushers for the "detailed construction modeling" and how they are going to justify the expense and training.

 

Is it just me that thinks that this is a great opportunity for those that can become BIM gurus?

 

 

In retrospect though, will BIM go the way of partnering when it was tried?

 

 

Interesting times for sure.

[tzframpton]

Well that kinda data can and does exist depending on the scenario. For instance, we had a recent job that was a BIM job with full 3D coordinated electronic CAD files from the mechanical (which was my company), steel, piping, plumbing, and electrical contractors. There were three different times during meetings we had some serious interferences that were taken care of well before anything was submitted to the fab shop, let alone the field. Had these clashes been discovered in the field, this would have created a loss in labor time from the 1st installation, the loss of material, the cost of new material, and the cost of the labor to demo the old and put in the new. that could have been the difference of up to $20k we estimated, worst case scenario that is.

 

But thanks for linking the article, a good read nonetheless.

[Teeds]

Well that kinda data can and does exist depending on the scenario. For instance, we had a recent job that was a BIM job with full 3D coordinated electronic CAD files from the mechanical (which was my company), steel, piping, plumbing, and electrical contractors. There were three different times during meetings we had some serious interferences that were taken care of well before anything was submitted to the fab shop, let alone the field. Had these clashes been discovered in the field, this would have created a loss in labor time from the 1st installation, the loss of material, the cost of new material, and the cost of the labor to demo the old and put in the new. that could have been the difference of up to $20k we estimated, worst case scenario that is.

 

But thanks for linking the article, a good read nonetheless.

 

Interference analysis is probably the strongest tools in the quiver, as far as I'm concerned.

 

I was talking with a contractor today about BIM and he said they had only run across it once. His specialty is medical and medical office. Everyone in the room agreed that it has it's place, but that to publish the fact that 20% can be saved is ridiculous.

 

The pregnant question is 20% of what?

• Does the savings account for the increase in front end design time that goes into a project?
  
• Does the savings account for the fact that many subcontractor firms don’t have the talent in house ... unlike y’all?
  
• Does this tend to prevent smaller shops from even bidding?

I also wonder what the underside limit on the value of a project that would benefit from BIM.

 

Don’t get me wrong, I can clearly see how BIM could become the wave of the future, but it still boils down to execution.

 

When I was designing the Nokia Towers in Las Colinas, I gave the Fire Protection and Plumbing Subs centerline elevations for all of their pressure piping throughout the building. Fire protection piping has always been a huge headache as the main distribution usually goes in early, and is generally 4 or 6 inch. They were given this number the first day on the job and expected to adhere to it.

 

As bad as ductwork guys hate doing it, we all can point to some crazy configuration that was necessary to clear a beam, a pipe, or a ceiling.

 

I hope it comes close to filling it’s promise. It will reduce the army of project engineers on big jobs. Austin had a trailer full at the Nokia site. There had to be 15~20 of them there that were so highly specialized that I wondered if the they knew too much about too little and were in danger of eventually knowing everything about nothing.

 

I’ll keep posting links as I find them!

[tzframpton]

Interference analysis is probably the strongest tools in the quiver, as far as I'm concerned.

I agree.

I also wonder what the underside limit on the value of a project that would benefit from BIM.

There's not yet a really good fully adopted standard. BIM also helps when a project is done, and it also helps keep track of quantity and other info for estimators (at least in my office). BIM is something that will still be cleaning up the edges in 10-20 years before it really starts taking off I think. But, who knows....

When I was designing the Nokia Towers in Las Colinas....

Hmmm.... I work about 5 minutes from those towers. :wink:

[Teeds]

There's not yet a really good fully adopted standard. BIM also helps when a project is done, and it also helps keep track of quantity and other info for estimators (at least in my office). BIM is something that will still be cleaning up the edges in 10-20 years before it really starts taking off I think. But, who knows....

 

Well it took that long for CAD to come unto its own, so I bet you might not be that far off.

 

Autodesk as got to come up with a way for small shops to justify sticking a toe in the water IF they want us to even consider it. I cannot justify any more expensive programs on my computer that do not make me money. I have enough already between Adobe and ESRI.

 

Hmmm.... I work about 5 minutes from those towers. :wink:

 

I drove by them today ... and yesterday for that matter as I had meetings in Southlake and Roanoke.

 

I enjoyed working on them but it took getting away by a decade because the pain is now dull enough that pride can come through. They were tough and took a lot out of me because there was way too little help on them ... until Nokia decided to take them anyway.

 

CarrAmerica was the shell developer and I was working for them. They had always hoped Nokia would take the buildings and with their tech center next door, it was a natural. We were finishing up the tech center and about half done with the shell design of the towers when Nokia came on board.

 

Such fun ...

 

They will likely stand as the last high rises I will ever draw. I'm solo now and most people think you need a team to design a high rise. I had one person part time helping me on the shell.