Engineer wont do electronic seals.

[Tuns]

Our engineer isn't even willing to consider electronic seals and we can't figure out how to convince him. He is afraid of someone somehow taking his seal and using it on other drawings that he himself never actually sealed. This guy is more stone age than a cave man is. Any suggestions on how to convince him that they are secure and that we should do them?

[tzframpton]

Our engineer isn't even willing to consider electronic seals and we can't figure out how to convince him. He is afraid of someone somehow taking his seal and using it on other drawings that he himself never actually sealed. This guy is more stone age than a cave man is. Any suggestions on how to convince him that they are secure and that we should do them?

Probably pretty hard. Read here, and scroll down to the "How can I use an electronic signature?" section:

http://www.tbpe.state.tx.us/enforce_faqs.htm

 

It clearly states that the engineer is taking full responsibility of a digital signature. Not to say that someone couldn't scan his signature on any existing job and reuse it already - because they can. But it would be much more effort to go that route versus a digital seal and signature conveniently located on a server. Younger generation engineers are totally okay with it, as they keep record of anything they seal. But, at my last company, the company was responsible, not the engineer, of any legal aspects of a sign and sealed document.

 

At a company I worked for back in 2006, our engineer had a Tool Palette Block of his signature, with a custom "handwritten" TTF font for the date as an Attribute, and a scanned JPG of his physical signature placed in the block as well. So only he had access to it. He would drop it in the Titleblock and save, the run a publish for the PDFs. Once done he'd hit a button I made on the Tool Palette that was a macro that deleted the block and purged it, saved and closed the Titleblock (to make things easier for him). He absolutely loved it. But at only 38 years of age at the time, he wasn't old either and loved embracing technology. He was very proficient in AutoCAD himself.

 

So, either way, there is a risk to benefit factor. Just run it by him and let him decide. Don't try and convince him of anything or he'll feel pressured I'm sure. Plus, lots of old timer engineers like to physically seal drawings. Just something about it makes them feel like they've finalized a phase in the project.

[Tuns]

Thanks, I'll read it and tell him about it. Hopefully he will stop being as stubborn as a mule about it. Right now, we have to drive half way across San Antonio just to have him seal the drawing. It's ridiculous.

[tzframpton]

Thanks, I'll read it and tell him about it. Hopefully he will stop being as stubborn as a mule about it. Right now, we have to drive half way across San Antonio just to have him seal the drawing. It's ridiculous.

Ah, so he's an independently operating engineer? It probably won't happen then, since he assumes all liability if something ever goes wrong.

[Tuns]

Yeah, he's independent. He does it for everyone but us though... I don't know why he wont do it for us.

[tzframpton]

If he already does is then why are you asking us how you can convince him? Obviously he doesn't need convincing of the idea. He already does it with others. Sounds like it's something else with your company.

[Tuns]

Well, he will only use his digital stamp on things he has drawn for other companies, but he wont use it on our drawings. The only reason is because he doesn't want someone else somehow getting a hold of his seal and copying it to other drawings. We want to convince him that it's safe so that we don't have to drive 30 minutes out of the way just to get his seal on them.

[Organic]

Our engineer isn't even willing to consider electronic seals and we can't figure out how to convince him. He is afraid of someone somehow taking his seal and using it on other drawings that he himself never actually sealed.

 

That is a VALID reason NOT to use digital signatures.

 

Any suggestions on how to convince him that they are secure and that we should do them?

 

They are generally NOT secure.

 

Younger generation engineers are totally okay with it, as they keep record of anything they seal.

 

Age is not relevant. Those who are blindly letting digital signatures be used outside of their own control are idiots.

 

But, at my last company, the company was responsible, not the engineer, of any legal aspects of a sign and sealed document.

 

In the country I live, an engineer is ultimately responsible for signing off on the design, not the company. Both can be held responsible for future damages though (as the engineer is an employee of the company and operating under their insurances). The engineer is the one who will lose their certification (or face disciplinary action), not the company.

 

At a company I worked for back in 2006, our engineer had a Tool Palette Block of his signature, with a custom "handwritten" TTF font for the date as an Attribute, and a scanned JPG of his physical signature placed in the block as well. So only he had access to it. He would drop it in the Titleblock and save, the run a publish for the PDFs. Once done he'd hit a button I made on the Tool Palette that was a macro that deleted the block and purged it, saved and closed the Titleblock (to make things easier for him). He absolutely loved it. But at only 38 years of age at the time, he wasn't old either and loved embracing technology. He was very proficient in AutoCAD himself.

 

This sounds like a good setup.

 

However, firstly it relies on the engineer doing it correctly (e.g. layers may inadvertently be off etc) althoguh more tellingly many engineers know nothing about AutoCad and cannot print from it, let alone insert a block and publish the set of drawings to make a PDF.

 

Perhaps most importantly of all is that it is requiring the engineer to take additional time to add the digital signature themselves than it would take for them to get a drafter to print a set of plans for them to sign (or less securely, to get the drafter to insert the digital signature and PDF the plans). If it takes an extra 15 or 30 minutes for the engineer to PDF the plans, guess who pays... the client.

 

I know AutoCad well although am still not in favour of this. Most engineers do not know AutoCad well and there is little chance of that changing.

 

Yeah, he's independent. He does it for everyone but us though... I don't know why he wont do it for us.

 

Perhaps he has been burned by your company in the past?

 

The company I work for uses a mixture of digital signatures (survey) and 'wet' signatures (engineering). The digital signatures (i.e. simply a JPEG grabbed off of the server and inserted into the drawing) are not secured in any shape or form (and more often than not are inadvertently sent to other parties). As far as I am aware they have not been abused or mistakenly used yet although it is only a matter of time.

[neophoible]

Well, he will only use his digital stamp on things he has drawn for other companies, but he wont use it on our drawings. The only reason is because he doesn't want someone else somehow getting a hold of his seal and copying it to other drawings. We want to convince him that it's safe so that we don't have to drive 30 minutes out of the way just to get his seal on them.

Hmmm. Easy to criticize when you don't bear the liability. You don't have to drive over there. Simply hire a courier. That is a LOT cheaper than future liability issues, especially for him. If you're too cheap or lazy to do that, then perhaps there is a problem on your end much more than on his?

[tzframpton]

Well, he will only use his digital stamp on things he has drawn for other companies, but he wont use it on our drawings. The only reason is because he doesn't want someone else somehow getting a hold of his seal and copying it to other drawings.

Exactly right! Your first post stated "Our engineer...." which insinuated the engineer was employed at your company. So all the info I posted - just throw it out the window. My post applies to engineers who are willingly employed, who can control the ownership of the digital version of their seal.

 

Now that I see the real situation, the idea of your company possesing and maintaining his digital seal and signature is completely useless. Why doesn't he just drive over there, drop off a physical we seal stamp, sign a piece of paper so that your company can scan it in and use it whenever you want? Get my point?

 

The engineer uses digital seals for work he performs, which makes sense because he's in control of it. So, yeah... this thread is meaningless at this point. Had you been a bit more clear it would have saved the back and forth, lol.

 

If you ever do get an engineer in-house, then you're all set with my advice above.

 

Those who are blindly letting digital signatures be used outside of their own control are idiots.

Agreed!! But this was before Tuns gave all the information up front. The engineers I worked with owned and maintained their digital signatures from their local computers. Nobody had access to them. In fact, their wet seals were sitting on their desk, which now has become more convenient to use than the digital counterparts! haha, kinda funny actually.

[Tuns]

So why is it that he can't use an electronic signature on the seal? Is that method suddenly insecure? I better contact the government and lawyers to tell them that electronic signatures aren't secure anymore.

[tzframpton]

I'm not sure I'm following? Can you elaborate a bit more?

[Tuns]

Can't he use an electronic signature on his seals to make it secure? If that isn't secure then everyone is doing it wrong.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_signature

[tzframpton]

Still not following completely, but I think you're misunderstanding the fact that he's sending a document that HAS been signed by means of a digital seal and signature. He's not sending the authoring file (aka DWG file) with the electronic seal and signature contained within it. Two totally different things here.

 

Point is, he doesn't want anybody else to be in possession of his electronic seal and signature - which is the proper way of handling this situation because it's his responsibility.

[Tuns]

I think you're misunderstanding what an electronic signature is. Did you read nothing in that link?

[tzframpton]

I think you're misunderstanding what an electronic signature is. Did you read nothing in that link?

I think we both are misunderstanding all this! lol

 

[Tuns]

Probably.

 

Basically, an electronic signature is completely original and specific to one person. If he has an electronic signature, then it cannot be copied or replicated. It's just as original as a signature on a piece of paper. If anything changes on the document the signature disappears. If we were to send a PDF for him to seal, he could put that signature on his seal, send it back, and we could print it out or whatever we want, but we cant actually make a copy of it or change it or anything. It would be as if he sealed it in person.

[tzframpton]

I don't know why you're trying to convince me. I'm not the engineer.... lol

[Tuns]

I don't know. Everyone is ragging me about liability issues when he is liable whether or not the seal digital. Organic says they aren't secure when in fact, they are more secure than a real signature is. I just felt that I had to defend myself is all.

[tzframpton]

I don't know. Everyone is ragging me about liability issues when he is liable whether or not the seal digital. Organic says they aren't secure when in fact, they are more secure than a real signature is. I just felt that I had to defend myself is all.

Would you give someone a usable copy of your social security card and passport?