Ferronovum Posted February 5, 2009 Author Share Posted February 5, 2009 (the 40000 points was just a testgrid covering 200x200 m with res 1 m) I joined here to get tips along the road. The budget for the first building is about 100 000 sek. Contracting a firm to make the plan is 50 000 sek. So its overwork and the cost isn't defensable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferronovum Posted February 5, 2009 Author Share Posted February 5, 2009 I don't know what you're using the survey for, but here in the United States the precision depends on what the final product is intended for. There are some projects that require closures of more than 1:500,000 . If you plan on making a plat, minimums are anywhere from 1: 5,000 to 1:40,000 . Like Eldon said, if you are measuring using tape, there will be a lot of error accumulated with the slack in the tape, the angle in relation to the ground, and it is far harder to take the actual measurement accurately. You can use an invar tape to minimize these problems. If you had a way to measure the angles to the second, you could do all the work by triangulation & get remarkable results. You would simply turn angles to the objects from 2 of your stations (no distances involved) and the location would be represented by intersection. The accuracy would go up as the distances became farther away (allowing more distance to line up the angle). I would guess that there are rudimentary ways of getting precise angle measurements (mechanical theodolites being one of them). You may be able to find an older model for fairly cheap. If you find this available, you could mark all your points & then run levels to them seperately. I think it would decrease the time location work would take dramatically. Well, I still think the tolerance will be good enough the way I plan to do it. About angels, a minimal error in reading the angel intends to get very large due to distance. calculate an error of 0.5 dregree 1, 5 10 and 15 meters away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustysilo Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Yeah with us folks in the civil engineering and survey community the term "contours" is 99.999% in regard to the ground topography. The other .001% being your post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferronovum Posted February 5, 2009 Author Share Posted February 5, 2009 He trying to learn it Charles.:wink: Long way to go though eh? Ferronovum, You need to start with one of the metric templates. Okey, thanks. I tought I did that, I will check on it later. My father want to see some results on the drawings so I have to switch back to the layout of walls, ruf, door and garageport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferronovum Posted February 5, 2009 Author Share Posted February 5, 2009 Yeah with us folks in the civil engineering and survey community the term "contours" is 99.999% in regard to the ground topography. The other .001% being your post. Yeah, I get that. My english is a bit off, espacilly the terms in GIS. 5-6 years without real stimulation at work does things to the head Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferronovum Posted February 5, 2009 Author Share Posted February 5, 2009 Yeah with us folks in the civil engineering and survey community the term "contours" is 99.999% in regard to the ground topography. The other .001% being your post. LOL well there is something for everything There is one thing I have been wondering about. Or more a smart system. The drawing of the buildings are mostly made with blocks. Meaning wood 45x90 mm and x mm long, 45x45 mm x mm long, Lecastone 190x190x590 mmand so on. Some of these blocks will I reuse in next building. Shall I store them as block in main drawing or make separate drawings and import them from some type of library. I also wonder about how to make a smart system for the wood. how keep the 45x90 (2"x4") dimension but different lenght without changing the lenght of the other blocks of same dimension. And last I wonder how to make a report that lists all objects in the drawing, x pcs wood 45x90 that is 2700mm x pcs wood 45x90 that is 555mm and so on..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferronovum Posted February 5, 2009 Author Share Posted February 5, 2009 This is what the first garage looks like at the moment. Its a dxf 2000format file packed. Dwg file on request. Next to do: 1. windows, 3 pcs 5 by 11 M (5 moduls high and 11moduls wide) placed on the south wall (opposite of the door) 2. "windstopper" 3. ruf Garage3D2000.zip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Roberts Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Ferronovum, Sorry that I upset you. I often see solutions that no one else se and my solutions differs from others. I like doing things my wayGood for you, and by all means do whatever you want if it helps you to learn. But you also state: I have a deadline when I need to be done to apply for permission to build. No, this is absolutly not a school project. Its a real siteIf you are submitting this for building site approval, you will almost certainly need a licensed surveyor somewhere along the way. I'm trying to find a way to mark the bordersI think you mean the land boundary or property lines. This is where you cross the line into boundary surveying and what I meant by not being qualified. I don't know the laws where you live, but even if you know how to properly interpret the property description, you have to relate it to monuments in the field, using precision that exceeds the equipment you have, and possibly judgement calls if there is disagreement from record data. In that sense, you cannot place the boundary on the map. There are other issues as well. Maybe there are easements that you cannot build over, or rights of adjacent owners for access, minimum building setback limits from property lines, etc. Just a warning of complications that will come up on a project like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferronovum Posted February 7, 2009 Author Share Posted February 7, 2009 Ferronovum, Sorry that I upset you. Good for you, and by all means do whatever you want if it helps you to learn. But you also state: If you are submitting this for building site approval, you will almost certainly need a licensed surveyor somewhere along the way. I think you mean the land boundary or property lines. This is where you cross the line into boundary surveying and what I meant by not being qualified. I don't know the laws where you live, but even if you know how to properly interpret the property description, you have to relate it to monuments in the field, using precision that exceeds the equipment you have, and possibly judgement calls if there is disagreement from record data. In that sense, you cannot place the boundary on the map. There are other issues as well. Maybe there are easements that you cannot build over, or rights of adjacent owners for access, minimum building setback limits from property lines, etc. Just a warning of complications that will come up on a project like this. Good morning! (I'm up early to go to the boatfair in Göteborg today.) Well I'm not sure that I meantioned that the site is outside "deatailed area". Nearest neighbour is like 2-300 meters away and you can't see their house. Yes its the boundary lines I mean. These are already messaured by survey back in 1965 on paper. The corners are marked in nature by iron-poles drilled in stone and rockground. They are marked on the old papermap with a local grid coordinates (x,y). the format of the coordinates are simple x=95.56 meters, y=77.81 meters using a local x=100, y=100 coordinate. Those coordinates will I simple use and mark them in my map. Those marks I guess that you call monuments? About setbacks and that stuff. All I need is an agreement from the neighbour to build right on the boundary, else I need 1 meter distance. We will also invite the neighbour when we mark the exact place for the gound so he can see that we are on the right side. And besides, when the survey for our land was made they left a small corridor, less than 5 meters between us and the road and that small corridor is for no use for the owner. It was just that the road department didn't wanted one more neighbour to deal with. We have the right to cross that land to acess our land. We have had plans for this a long time now and the thing that has stopped us is an electric wire that crosses our land where we want to build. That wire is comming down this year since they are digging it down in the ground. Well the digging is done but not all are connected to the new wire. Intressting is that on the digitalmaps thatthe department of survey has, the wire goes outside our land but in reality, the wire crosses it. So I don't have much confident for them. Thanx for the warnings but as you see, I think I got them covered. The only thing that can happen is that we are declined the permission to build and then have to contract a surveyfirm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Roberts Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Nearest neighbour is like 2-300 meters away and you can't see their house. All I need is an agreement from the neighbour to build right on the boundary, else I need 1 meter distance As usual, you make no sense. Goodbye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferronovum Posted February 7, 2009 Author Share Posted February 7, 2009 As usual, you make no sense. Goodbye. Just one last question for you Charles? You're from USA? I mean, you just fit the picture of USA so much that the rest of the world have. (To RustySilo, not everyone in USA are of course like that. ) And another thought. If I say that it is this way of jurisdiction. Don't you think I have looked up the laws? I mean, concentrate on helping me getting the map done and let me worry about the laws. My parents have a cottage and we built it bigger, we only draw changes with pen and paper and it was okey. That cottage lies 10 cm from the boundary. All the department wanted besides the drawing where a written agreement from our neighbours, in this case a signature on the map showing the new buildings. SO WHAT IS IT THAT MAKES NO SENSE????????????????? After some thinking I have come to the conclusing that I seams to know more then you. All I need is a dictionary translating Civil 3D so I find what I will use. And someone else that knows Civil 3D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eldon Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 After some thinking I have come to the conclusing that I seams to know more then you. When you first posted with your problem which seemed to cover a complete range of topics from mapmaking to applying for building permission, members of the forum were eager to help you. But your responses seemed to throw everyone's advice back in their faces. I think everyone came to the same conclusion as you have, but a lot sooner. They just wonder why you ever started Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferronovum Posted February 8, 2009 Author Share Posted February 8, 2009 When you first posted with your problem which seemed to cover a complete range of topics from mapmaking to applying for building permission, members of the forum were eager to help you. But your responses seemed to throw everyone's advice back in their faces. I think everyone came to the same conclusion as you have, but a lot sooner. They just wonder why you ever started Well I had an idea of how to make the map but wanted tip and reflections of where to start. I thought I only needed AutoCAD 2009, but realized that it wasn't enough. Got the tip with SiteTopo that seamed prommising with the use of xml. There I need help to understand the different types of lines and markers but didn't get any real answers. Instead I got Civil 3D to try making it from scartch. Sadly Charles got stuck on laws just cuz I ran in to an error with his SiteTopo. I Realize now that I should have been more specific in my questions cuz some of the reply where things I already had covered. For an example, the measurements, I know how to measure it, but needed the forumla to translate my circles to x and y coordinates. I found those formulas in the article from barns to satelites (gps) and created an own check from a third point that calcs an aproximated error of the point. so I know that I'm inside the tolerance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eldon Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Well I had an idea of how to make the map but wanted tip and reflections of where to start. I thought I only needed AutoCAD 2009, but realized that it wasn't enough. Got the tip with SiteTopo that seamed prommising with the use of xml. There I need help to understand the different types of lines and markers but didn't get any real answers. You want too much from this CadTutor forum. It is very difficult to give you precise instructions about the very large subject of map making. Perhaps you could look at other mapping and see the way that information is presented on the drawing. There are no hard and fast rules about line types as long as the end result is clear. As planning maps are usually photocopied, you should not necessarily use colours, as it will all end up as black and white anyway. Also put a bar scale on your drawings because photocopying distorts. I Realize now that I should have been more specific in my questions cuz some of the reply where things I already had covered. For an example, the measurements, I know how to measure it, but needed the forumla to translate my circles to x and y coordinates. I found those formulas in the article from barns to satelites (gps) and created an own check from a third point that calcs an aproximated error of the point. so I know that I'm inside the tolerance.Here you are confusing me totally. If you work from a base line (which doesn't change) for trilateration, then with two measurements, how can you get an error? If the equation is written correctly, and you put the data in the correct order, then you can only get one point. Your method seems to be plucked from academia, whereas surveying is very practical when you are up your knees in mud and horizontal rain/snow. I only know trilateration as a calculatory exercise and have never used it in real life. But then you say you want to do it your way. Perhaps you can see why you are causing obfuscation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferronovum Posted February 8, 2009 Author Share Posted February 8, 2009 You want too much from this CadTutor forum. It is very difficult to give you precise instructions about the very large subject of map making. Perhaps you could look at other mapping and see the way that information is presented on the drawing. There are no hard and fast rules about line types as long as the end result is clear. As planning maps are usually photocopied, you should not necessarily use colours, as it will all end up as black and white anyway. Also put a bar scale on your drawings because photocopying distorts. Here you are confusing me totally. If you work from a base line (which doesn't change) for trilateration, then with two measurements, how can you get an error? If the equation is written correctly, and you put the data in the correct order, then you can only get one point. Your method seems to be plucked from academia, whereas surveying is very practical when you are up your knees in mud and horizontal rain/snow. I only know trilateration as a calculatory exercise and have never used it in real life. But then you say you want to do it your way. Perhaps you can see why you are causing obfuscation. Well, maybe I shall try to explain my "trilateration" or as I want to call it, "Bilateration". I don't have a baseline. I just got 3 known points in nature. I don't have any instrument to measure the angel. If I want to calc a fourth, new point I simply measure the distance to two of the known points. This will represent two circles with center in the two referens points. The circles will intersect on two places, one ringht and one wrong. Due to tolerance and measureerror, a circle from the third point will not exactly intersec in the fourth point. Therefor have the equationsystem no solution. Instead you use the distance to the third referens point to determine wich point is wrong and wich is right. Acctually you get the distance between the fourth point and the intersection from the third referens point. Smallest number tells you wich point is right and an aproximation of the error. My knowlegde of math tells me that if sinus, cosinus and so on in equations, you will always end up with two answers and an infinte number of periods with two answers in every periods. I could be misstaken, its a couple of years since I was working with maths. Was my explaiontion to any help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eldon Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 You appear to be using a redundant resection by measurement with a triangle of error. As nobody, but nobody does that in real life, and you want to do it your way, can you be suprised why nobody can offer you any help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eldon Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 In fact, having had a little ponder, if you have three fixed (known) points and you take three taped dimensions from them, then the equations can only use two dimensions from two points to give a solution, so you end up with six solutions. (How do you know which dimension is better that another one?). As I say, nobody does it like that. Also one point to consider is that if you are presenting this map on paper, what scale are you going to plot it at? Say 1 to 200. Then ½mm on the drawing is the same as 100mm on the ground. Are you trying to be too accurate with your method of surveying? I had better keep quite now, or someone will be pointing out that this is a CAD Forum and not a surveying one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferronovum Posted February 8, 2009 Author Share Posted February 8, 2009 You appear to be using a redundant resection by measurement with a triangle of error. As nobody, but nobody does that in real life, and you want to do it your way, can you be suprised why nobody can offer you any help? Well, I would lie to get some help putting my data into Civil 3D. The data will be in xyz format, some points are marking the corner of the boundary, the rest is just measurepoints for elevation. From this I need to create triangles. I will also need to mark areas as road, buildings, gras, rock and so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferronovum Posted February 8, 2009 Author Share Posted February 8, 2009 In fact, having had a little ponder, if you have three fixed (known) points and you take three taped dimensions from them, then the equations can only use two dimensions from two points to give a solution, so you end up with six solutions. (How do you know which dimension is better that another one?).As I say, nobody does it like that. Also one point to consider is that if you are presenting this map on paper, what scale are you going to plot it at? Say 1 to 200. Then ½mm on the drawing is the same as 100mm on the ground. Are you trying to be too accurate with your method of surveying? I had better keep quite now, or someone will be pointing out that this is a CAD Forum and not a surveying one Well I use only 2D in my measrues, z will be measured separately. So it's not that many intersections. Since my referens point doesn't line up or forming a 90 degree angel its simply the one with the shortest distance that is the correct one. I'm not that good on math right now to make a proof that it is this way, I just know it is. Scale will be 1:500 and yes, I know my tolerance is set alot higher than needed. I just like doing it with my composed way of measure. The subject of how to measure and calc the corrdinates are hereby closed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sjano Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 look for "Pointset reconstruction" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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