CTB. vs STB. plot styles

[Cadfused]

Hello Everyone,
I just wanted to get a general input from our AutoCad community on your preference and why for CTB plot styles and STB plot styles. In short, I am in the Architectural field and where I work, once there was a standardised pen table list for our drawings. The big mishap was that the pen styles were saved to each computer hard drive instead of on the network and what once was a list of, maybe 7 or so CTB styles has now become many differening from work station to work station. I'm spearheading getting back to a standard so our drawings plot the same line weights from studio to studio in our facility. I asked a couple others to aid me in this. One is leaning heavy to using STB styles, though we currently use CTB. An issue, i do believe our facility would face by changing to STB would be, as i understand, the drawing has to be created and started using an STB file in order to print using it, as opposed to the originally created drawing using CTB. is this myth or fact? What do you prefer? :? I appreciate any input to aid in my decision of how to lead our Cad personnel.

Thank you,
Cadfused

Ps. if i should not reply back to you right away, our beloved filter tends to catch replies from this web site and i see it a day later when i get my junk mail report.

[NBC]

I prefer the use of CTB files as they provide more of a WYSIWYG draughting environment, i believe.

in any case, it is possible to switch between the two mid-drawing should you wish to (i would advise strongly against it, however)

[ReMark]

We use CTB files too.

You can convert between styles using the CONVERTPSTYLES command. You might want to consult AutoCAD Help for more information regarding this command before actually using it.

[SLW210]

I also prefer CTB. Would you like for me to make this a poll, so everyone can vote?

[Cadfused]

I and one of the two people helping me in this endeavor had tried the convertpstyles but it seems the STB's are locked in a read only format and we were unable to figure out how to turn that off. So far, you are only solidifying my thinking with regards to CTB's and STB's and hopefully i can use the feedbacks to show to this person to sway him, too. :twisted:

How does the poll work in terms of me being able to view the results? i would very much appreciate that, if you don't mind doing that for me. :P

Thanks for all of your inputs in this question.

[SLW210]

Poll all set. Once you vote, you will see the results.

I use CTB only because it is quite sufficient for the plotting I do and CTB is company standard. I would have no problem using STB and have mucked around with it. Some say it is more difficult to learn, but I see no such problem. :thumbsup:

[Cadfused]

In terms of trying to achieve more depth to your printed drawing, is there any benefit to one over the other that any of you know of from experience? i know that i can achieve some good depth using CTB and have had some exposure to STB when i was working in the civil side of engineering, but there was little to know depth needed when doing civil, unlike in Architecture with building elevations.

[Cadfused]

Also, thank you for setting that poll up for me. i appreciate it. :D

[cadfly]

we were using CTB, but have since switched over to STB for new projects. We have not had many problems using CONVERTPSTYLES. There was initial reluctancy from some to switch to STB because they did not understand it.
Could someone explain how WYSIWYG applies to CTB?
As far as WYSIWYG, that feel that it is really a mis-term. If you really did WYSIWYG, then you plots would exactly the way you seen on your screen, meaning that the plot would come out colored, all lines would be the same width. I dont' get the WYSIWYG concept.
WYSIWYG was the beginning arguement for the reluctant ones here, i tried to explain to them that that same WYSIWYG "thought" could be applied to STB also.

[azzro10]

have always used CTB (company standards) never had any experience with STB

[NBC]

the way i have always used CTB's is to let the layer manager dictate how something will be plotted out; so that if a layer has a lineweight of 0.18mm attributed to it, then the entities on that layer will be plotted out at 0.18mm wide on paper.
when using CTB's, there is the option of ensuring Display Plot Styles. this is how the WYSIWYG effect is achieved.
sorry cadfly, i don't take your denigration of CTB's lightly; feels almost a personal attack <sighs>

your comment that CTB's plots will come out all coloured, all lines would be the same width is not very appropriate, as if you knew how to properly set up CTB files you would know that statement is far from correct.

there is more than one way to skin a cat.
CTB's work great (and have done for the past however long i have been using AutoCAD), and I see no reason in your post to change to STB's

[Cadfused]

Thank you, NBC. I actually forgot about the setting that permits you to view your paper space layout in the as-plotted setting. It would seem both have their good points. As I was saying to my group, here, we will probably set up our CTB standard list for now and if we want to dabble in STB's at a later time, we can do so. Thank you all for your input. I greatly appreciate it. :lol:

[chulse]

I prefer the use of CTB files as they provide more of a WYSIWYG draughting environment, i believe.

I too use CTB files most of the time. I typically need to use the CTB of our client (we are typically a sub-consultant) and almost all of our clients use CTB. STB works well enough when you understand it. I'm just more familliar with CTB I guess.

I agree with the WYSIWYG thought- besides the "display plot styles" option (that I do use) you get used to seeing colored lines as they will print in B&W once you have the CTB arrangement memorized.

[Cadfused]

Good point, Chulse. Since we do deal with other disciplines in the construction field, it may be best for us to keep with what most industry works with. It may cause a lot of confusion for other disciplines we work with if we would need to send them an STB file to print our drawings and they would not have the knowledge or know how to do it. Thank you.

[Dipali]

Good point, Chulse. Since we do deal with other disciplines in the construction field, it may be best for us to keep with what most industry works with. It may cause a lot of confusion for other disciplines we work with if we would need to send them an STB file to print our drawings and they would not have the knowledge or know how to do it. Thank you.

yes this is correct.
I am using autocad for long time but have no clue about STB.
It may be very good feature, but bcs having worked with CTB all the time, That is what I prefer and it is good practice to use what most of the people works with.

[Cadfused]

Hello. Thank you for confirming my thoughts. Pardon my lack of knowledge but what is "BCS"?
love your Shakespear quote and reply, by the way. :)

[Strix]

I can see a FAQ coming on

bookmarked

[Dipali]

Hello. Thank you for confirming my thoughts. Pardon my lack of knowledge but what is "BCS"?
love your Shakespear quote and reply, by the way. :)

Thanks,

bcs- stands for because.
I have some peculier shortcurts for words i use when replying to this & another site like this for example
'u' for 'you'
'r' for 'are'
'bcs' for because.


I try not to use it in professional emails or documents but sometimes and this habits gets me into trouble sometimes while doing fromal emails or documents.:oops:

[Cadfused]

L.O.L.
Thank you for explaining the "BCS" mystery to me. I was thinking in Cad when I read that and couldn't recall any command or setting by that. I wasn't thinking in terms of short cutting words. Sorry about that.

Does anyone know, aside of the possible confusion of STB's, is there any apparent benefit of it over CTB's at all? I guess it just offers options to those that like having the ability to make choices. :geek:

[Cadfused]

I can see a FAQ coming on

bookmarked

Wow! never expected this could reach FAQ status. I feel kind of honored. :shock:
Thanks!

[Strix]

We'll see if it passes the rest of the team's criteria :thumbsup:

[chulse]

L.O.L.
Does anyone know, aside of the possible confusion of STB's, is there any apparent benefit of it over CTB's at all?

I think STB gives the user a bit more freedom particularly within the dwg. I don't think STBs are limited to 255 styles. And since color doesn't matter to an STB (unless you tell it to) you can use colors that are easy to see on screen without thinking about how they will plot.

The alternate point is this: I think CTB is easier for an organization to implement as a standard and enforce. Less freedom in the dwg and more control from the pen table. Standard colors for the layers with a standard CTB= consistant results. The layers will always be "plot style by color" so there is 1 less thing to mess with.

My $.02 (for the half cent it's worth...)

[NBC]

I personally think ctb give more freedom.
But there are go; always going to be differences of opinion.

I guess it really does boil down to how much experience you have had with either; and follow that through.

[chulse]

I guess it really does boil down to how much experience you have had with either; and follow that through.

I couldn't agree more. (I still prefer CTB anyway...)

[Cadfused]

I think STB gives the user a bit more freedom particularly within the dwg. I don't think STBs are limited to 255 styles. And since color doesn't matter to an STB (unless you tell it to) you can use colors that are easy to see on screen without thinking about how they will plot.

The alternate point is this: I think CTB is easier for an organization to implement as a standard and enforce. Less freedom in the dwg and more control from the pen table. Standard colors for the layers with a standard CTB= consistant results. The layers will always be "plot style by color" so there is 1 less thing to mess with.

My $.02 (for the half cent it's worth...)

Just remember one thing, the cost to make a penny, with copper, now adays is more than the penny is worth. It may only be your $.02 worth but the info is greatly appreciated so i can get a visual of the big picture for CTB and STB preferences and why. thank you for your input. :D

[ammobake]

Hello Everyone,
I just wanted to get a general input from our AutoCad community on your preference and why for CTB plot styles and STB plot styles. In short, I am in the Architectural field and where I work, once there was a standardised pen table list for our drawings. The big mishap was that the pen styles were saved to each computer hard drive instead of on the network and what once was a list of, maybe 7 or so CTB styles has now become many differening from work station to work station. I'm spearheading getting back to a standard so our drawings plot the same line weights from studio to studio in our facility. I asked a couple others to aid me in this. One is leaning heavy to using STB styles, though we currently use CTB. An issue, i do believe our facility would face by changing to STB would be, as i understand, the drawing has to be created and started using an STB file in order to print using it, as opposed to the originally created drawing using CTB. is this myth or fact? What do you prefer? :? I appreciate any input to aid in my decision of how to lead our Cad personnel.

Thank you,
Cadfused

Ps. if i should not reply back to you right away, our beloved filter tends to catch replies from this web site and i see it a day later when i get my junk mail report.

I prefer CTB because it's the easiest to work with IMO. I noticed that you can only have one applied at a time also and when I started out with ADT2007 I had problems because it is set to plot with STB's applied (by default) and not CTB's. I had a heck of a time figuring out why it wouldn't let me apply a CTB because I didn't know what an STB was lol. There is a command you have to type in to toggle between the two that I eventually found in the help menu.

When I worked in R&D a couple years ago our company would use a CTB that would always be in the same place on the network. We also made page printouts of the colors and the lineweights to be applied for all the folks on the design team so that we could could change the CTB and/or make one manually if need be so that everything was standardized.

If I'm not mistaken STB's weren't even around until a couple years ago or so. If you plot using a standardized STB and someone later wants to plot the file using an older version of CAD it might not work. When I went to school for CAD we only had CTB's (on autocad 2005). That's one reason I stick with CTB's. That way any version of autocad someone is using they can always use the standardized CTB for plotting without having to find a workaround/addon/plug-in that will allow them to plot using the STB.

-ChriS

[Cad64]

If I'm not mistaken STB's weren't even around until a couple years ago or so.

Just for the record, STB's have been around since Autocad 2000, which came out in 1999. :wink:

But I use CTB's also. Always have, probably always will.

[ammobake]

Just for the record, STB's have been around since Autocad 2000, which came out in 1999. :wink:

But I use CTB's also. Always have, probably always will.

Rgr. I went through college and got certified in drafting technology with autocad 2005 and they never taught us about STB's, only CTB's. LOL!

:roll:

[Cadfused]

I prefer CTB because it's the easiest to work with IMO. I noticed that you can only have one applied at a time also and when I started out with ADT2007 I had problems because it is set to plot with STB's applied (by default) and not CTB's. I had a heck of a time figuring out why it wouldn't let me apply a CTB because I didn't know what an STB was lol. There is a command you have to type in to toggle between the two that I eventually found in the help menu.

When I worked in R&D a couple years ago our company would use a CTB that would always be in the same place on the network. We also made page printouts of the colors and the lineweights to be applied for all the folks on the design team so that we could could change the CTB and/or make one manually if need be so that everything was standardized.

If I'm not mistaken STB's weren't even around until a couple years ago or so. If you plot using a standardized STB and someone later wants to plot the file using an older version of CAD it might not work. When I went to school for CAD we only had CTB's (on autocad 2005). That's one reason I stick with CTB's. That way any version of autocad someone is using they can always use the standardized CTB for plotting without having to find a workaround/addon/plug-in that will allow them to plot using the STB.

-ChriS

Hmmm, Thanks for the info. Ironically, within this year (at some point), we are actually moving up to ADT 2007 and may encounter that same issue with it defaulting to STB. I appreciate that heads-up. Do you recall the command you had to type to toggle it over to CTB? :oops:

[Dipali]

Use This System Variable
Pstylepolicy
Set It To 1

[NBC]

Do you recall the command you had to type to toggle it over to CTB? :oops:

Look at CONVERTCTB, PSTYLEPOLICY and CONVERTPSTYLES in the help menu :)

[Cadfused]

Use This System Variable
Pstylepolicy
Set It To 1

Thank you, Dipali, for the command. I think that will certainly save a lot of headache when we do our upgrade, here.

Also, thank you, NBC, for the search guidelines, too. 'Convertpstyles' would not work in the case for the "out-of-box" Autocad STB default setting, though, would it? that really is only to transfer from CTB to STB or vise versa. Am i correct in my thinking?

[ammobake]

Yeah since STB is set in ADT2007 by default you will need to use the command CONVERTPSTYLES . That will enable color dependant CTB's instead of STB's.

[Teeds]

Just for the record, STB's have been around since Autocad 2000, which came out in 1999. :wink:

But I use CTB's also. Always have, probably always will.

That is the real key to the discussion, in my book.

I have tens of thousands of hours invested in CAD files going back to the late 1980s that I have in my archives.

I can plot any one of them today using at CTB file that I created a LONG time ago based upon a table provided us by Circuit City when we did store development for them. The first 25 colors are a bit funky, but then it repeats every eight colors, just like the pen plotter it ws developed for.

Five of the pens are solid and three are screened. That may not sound like a lot, but with 40+ years on the boards going back to ruling pens and linen, I can assure you that that is enough to properly communicate the design intent.

Nothing drive me crazier than a drawing with a single line weight throughout ... except maybe someone that has discovered fonts.

My quote at the bottom of my posts applies!

[Cadfused]

I have tens of thousands of hours invested in CAD files going back to the late 1980s that I have in my archives.

I can plot any one of them today using at CTB file that I created a LONG time ago based upon a table provided us by Circuit City when we did store development for them. The first 25 colors are a bit funky, but then it repeats every eight colors, just like the pen plotter it ws developed for.

Five of the pens are solid and three are screened. That may not sound like a lot, but with 40+ years on the boards going back to ruling pens and linen, I can assure you that that is enough to properly communicate the design intent."



Very good point and a point I was conveying to the others I had helping me that wanted to utilize STB's. It would get confusing to have to remember which drawings utilized stb's and which used ctb's if we did a switch. You don't want to mess with a masterpiece, whether that masterpiece originated as stb's or as ctb's.
That is a cool way to set up the ctb files with having 8 as solid and then others as screened back. that gets my brain churning ideas on how we might utilize something like that.

As for the 'Convertpstyles', is that the toggle that will default ADT2007 to use ctb's upon each opening of a CAD session or will that command have to be typed in each and every time? A place i worked prior to where i am now, we would have to type that command in to switch over to use STB's but, as i recall, it wasn't a command setting that stayed saved after closing out a session and reopening.

[ammobake]

You could create a new sheet set template that would then have what you want applied. Then when you start a new project you just use that template. There are a few ways of doing what you want. You could also simply save a file with your profiles, plot settings, and everything else applied that way when you start a new project in the future you simly open that same file and it has everything applied. Later on you can save the file as a different name so that the original always remains intact.

Under format> Option> AEC Project Defaults you will find the create button for making a new template. You will also see other defaults you can tweak. The good thing about creating a custom template is that you can use the settings in older drawings you might have.

In the autocad help menu under "customize startup" you will find how defaults generally work and all the commands necessary to tweak your default startup of autocad.

-ChriS

[Cadfused]

You could create a new sheet set template that would then have what you want applied. Then when you start a new project you just use that template. There are a few ways of doing what you want. You could also simply save a file with your profiles, plot settings, and everything else applied that way when you start a new project in the future you simly open that same file and it has everything applied. Later on you can save the file as a different name so that the original always remains intact.

Under format> Option> AEC Project Defaults you will find the create button for making a new template. You will also see other defaults you can tweak. The good thing about creating a custom template is that you can use the settings in older drawings you might have.

In the autocad help menu under "customize startup" you will find how defaults generally work and all the commands necessary to tweak your default startup of autocad.

-ChriS


You know, I forgot all about that capability and that would go a long way in getting our CAD operators on the same page and certainly in simplifying things. Thank you for the mini tutorial. You must have known what I would be asking next. Thank you for that insight and option. I will bring that up with the group i'm working with at my work place. Great idea! Thanks. :D

[ML0940]

Man!
That is an easy one for me
STB all the way

This allows the users to select any color they like per layer; then the lineweight is controlled by the plotstlye

I never like the idea of having use a specific color just to get a specific lineeweight.

Where I last worked, we did a lot of converting from CTB to STB

Yes, convertplotsyles is the correct command

I can not remember off the top of my head but there is an intermediate process that is involved when converting from CTB to STB.

ML

[NBC]

I use CTB's all the time; and it is not entirely true that you HAVE to use a specific colour to get it to print out a specific lineweight.
I have always used CTB's to print out the lineweight as specified in the Layer Manager Dialogue Box; irrespective of colour.

[Cadfused]

Man!
That is an easy one for me
STB all the way

This allows the users to select any color they like per layer; then the lineweight is controlled by the plotstlye

I never like the idea of having use a specific color just to get a specific lineeweight.

Where I last worked, we did a lot of converting from CTB to STB

Yes, convertplotsyles is the correct command

I can not remember off the top of my head but there is an intermediate process that is involved when converting from CTB to STB.

ML

Since you work with STB's in your work place, you would be a good candidate for me to ask.
What are the difficulties your business faces when sending a CAD drawing to another discipline that uses CTB? Do you convert it to CTB before exporting, do you send your STB plot settings with the drawing you send out, or what hurdles do you have to jump, if any, to have another discipline use your drawing and have it print with the correct line weights? :unsure:

[Cad64]

You should always Etransmit when sending files. It just makes everyone's lives so much easier.

[Cadfused]

You should always Etransmit when sending files. It just makes everyone's lives so much easier.

In my old place of employment, that was what we would do. Where I am now, there are a lot of "Old dogs" (excuse the terminology) that don't want to learn new tricks, even if it means making things a lot simpler in the long run. I prefer it, myself, for the sake of consistency between all of the disciplines when printing, but it is hard to get others on board. I'm in the process of working with another two guys in my current work place to streamline the cad systems and get things organized and push some of these wonderful options that CAD has to simplify lives. I'm not one to typically force ideas on a person but some things just need to be done to make a business more efficient and save man-hours in the process.

[ML0940]

Hey Cadfused,

I do not work in a multi-discipline office; it is a multi office but we are now using the same resources; I guess that does make it a lot easier.

Having said that, I agree totally with CAD64, using ETransmit is the best way of sending all drawing related sources in one package, it use to be called Pack and Go, I think.

Therefore, if you did a test ETransmit to yourself or someone in your office to test it, you'd find that all of the resources nec. for that drawing should be included.

Now the problem (specifically) that you are having is not that cut and dry; first of all, if your original drawing was done in CTB, then no plot styles exist yet for that drawing as you can see below the plotsyle in your layers dialog box, it is grayed out and it says, Color_1,Color_2 and so on.

So, the first thing I would do is, copy the original ctb file, then in acad, type convertctb, then you will be prompted to pick an existing .ctb file. it will then make an .stb file with the same name

After the ctb file is converted to stb, the stb file will say style_1, style_2 etc. So, if your ctb had color red (1), the converted file will show as style_1 and so on.

Then, in the CTB drawing (assuming you want to convert the drawing) you will type convertpstyles, you will then be prompted for your stb file. After you select your stb file, you will get this message


Drawing converted from Color Dependent mode to Named plot style mode.


Now, the drawing will still have your original Red, Green, Blue, Cyan etc colors in the layer dialog box but you will see Style_1, Style_2, respectfully.

So, that is really it, not too much involved as far as converting ctb files and drawings.

After that, you then will need to decide what geometry (layers) get what colors as you can use any colors now "and" assign a style to your layer. In the stb file, that is where you decide on which style gets what line weight.

For line type, we choose, use object line type in the stb file and for line weight, you make that whatever you want.

OK, so, let's say in the drawing, you have a layer named CADfused, and you named a style (in the stb file) CADfusedStyle, then in the layer dialog box, just assign CADfusedStyle to layer CADfused.

Make sense?

So, again, the converting is not too much work.
On line you can fine what true line weight red would be back in the day, if we were using Leroy pens and so on for each color.
Then you can make your styles to match.

The question then becomes, do we care about converting old drawings? Do we just use Stb going forward etc. etc.
What colors for what geometry do we use?
I think you get 26 styles which is a lot better then 9 colors, so now you can really open up to more line weights then in the past, so that may become a subject of debate.

After you have done all of that, then you can certainly automate the process, via a LISP or VBA routine.

If I remember correctly, I had created some STB drawing templates as well, then I used Layer Translator somewhere in the process, which was kind of cool. If you have 2 drawings with identical layer names and you translate one drawing using another drawing, the layer name will remain the same but the line type and color will be update (translated); so that was also useful in the process as well

Not too much work, just a lot of considerations

Hope this helps

ML

[Cadfused]

Thank you for the great lesson and detailed explainations. You are correct, the prior term was "Pack and Go". I don't think they even have an icon for "Etransmit". that is one of those, you either know it or you don't, things.
Thank you for getting back to me with that info. It helps in future considerations and directions to take things. :D

[ML0940]

Hey CADfused
No problem, any time.

The Etransmit is under File-Saveas, in the first pull down.

If you get into the conversion and make some decisions, I may be able to help you automate the process abit, if you'd like

ML

[Cadfused]

When, and if, we are able to get to that point, in this place, I would most likely take you up on that offer. I greatly appreciate it. thanks.:shock:

[ML0940]

Yes, I can understand that, trust me, I have been there.

From what I have found, it is always best to get upper management behind you on major objectives like re doing The CAD Standards from the ground up.

If you are the CAD Manager and able to make the decisions, then "unfortunately" we have to say sometimes, this is the way we are doing it. If they don't comply then there needs to be some level of recourse.

I always try to go the diplomatic way first; I will ask a majority of users, or some key users; then there is the inclusion factor that people appreciate.

After you have taken it all in, then generally majority rules and all must comply.

CAD Meetings are very important in my opinion, in order to keep all on the same page.

Also, with the old dogs, there has to come a point to where you stop entertaining the conversations such as, couldn't we just do this and do that.

Yes, we could, but if you push this button here, I just saved you about 15 other steps :)

It can be very challenging, I know.

Another thing I had to learn the hard way is to never ***** about a manger on a public forum because there is a good chance that they will go see it :)

So, I try to keep my venting to private messages :)

ML

[ML0940]

Hey CAD, don't be shocked
Many have helped me TREMENDOUSLY and still do help me

I have had the privilege of knowing some great programmers and CAD users.

Now, as with all of us; this offer is time permitting :)

So, go for it man!

Start the conversion

CTB is Old shool!
In my opinion :)

ML

[Cadfused]

We don't actually have a CAD manager, to speak of. We have an IT person but he oversees all programs. I was a CAD coordinator in a prior job and just was getting sick of hearing how people were going to correct the pen settings, here, and never doing it. If you want to get something done...and done right, you have to do it yourself. To this point i do have senior staff supporting me with pen settings. I plan to push for CAD training when we implement ADT2007....at some point (you know how that goes, the promise of upgrade that never seems to quite happen) and setting up templates to make sure people use the correct formats. all is one step at a time and with the good graces of the senior staff. Hopefully, it will be in the time you can allot. can't make that gaurantee but i certainly appreciate and welcome insight and knowledge of the CAD community.

Have a nice night. :)

[ML0940]

Thanks CAD
You too!

I understand you on all points; it sometimes makes me ask myslf, WHY? :)

Life was so much easier when I was draing lines and circles :)

ML

[dumfatnhappy]

(oYo) <--- these should need no introduction... :lol:

[rkent]

[quote=Cadfused;138233]Hello Everyone,
I just wanted to get a general input from our AutoCad community on your preference and why for CTB plot styles and STB plot styles. In short, I am in the Architectural field and where I work, once there was a standardised pen table list for our drawings. The big mishap was that the pen styles were saved to each computer hard drive instead of on the network and what once was a list of, maybe 7 or so CTB styles has now become many differening from work station to work station. I'm spearheading getting back to a standard so our drawings plot the same line weights from studio to studio in our facility. I asked a couple others to aid me in this. One is leaning heavy to using STB styles, though we currently use CTB. An issue, i do believe our facility would face by changing to STB would be, as i understand, the drawing has to be created and started using an STB file in order to print using it, as opposed to the originally created drawing using CTB. is this myth or fact? What do you prefer? :? I appreciate any input to aid in my decision of how to lead our Cad personnel.

Thank you,
Cadfused
quote]

A good article discussing the differences between STB and CTB.
Cadalyst.com
http://management.cadalyst.com/cadman/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=102922>

A good article on one firm's adoption of STB's. This is just one way of
many ways to set up STB standards so don't read this as the only way to use
STB's.
AUGI.com
May/June 2005 issue, page 24

[ReMark]

You can use CONVERTPSTYLES command to go from one to the other.

I use CTB. Long time AC user stuck in the past I guess.

[ML0940]

Hi Rkent

If you go back to the beginning of this post and read on, I think that you will find some of your questions have been answered.

I think that I went through the whole conversion process in this post.

God, I cringe at the thought of having to work with CTB again; it is just so limited to me.

I have helped spear head CAD Standard programs for 2 companies already and all I can say is. God help you!
LOL, Just kidding, it is actually..eh hemm, very challenging

I always say that it is best when upper management is behind you on it.

You did job my memory on one thing.

To the question about starting with stb; that is a yes, however, ctb can be converted to stb as mentioned by Remark; if you do that, I would make a copy of the ctb first, just to be safe.
Also, I prefer to share ctb and stb files on the network for the uniformity. We had a custom.ctb and a custom.stb as well, if the user needed a special change, but they were also told that the files were going to be overwritten each night by a script, to which they were; this way if anyone screwed up an original, we overwrote them from another location.

Also, on the other question; you reminded me that we started our drawing with one of two templates, that is ctb or stb. Then we changed it to all stb templates.

So, an old drawing can be converted or you can decide, any new projects, going forward are stb and ctb is legacy.
It is a bit of a pain for a while because you have to support both but in time, that will wither down.

So, yes, to start an new drawing, it must be created with an stb drawing template.

Good luck

ML

[richardkent]

Hi Rkent

If you go back to the beginning of this post and read on, I think that you will find some of your questions have been answered.

I think that I went through the whole conversion process in this post.

God, I cringe at the thought of having to work with CTB again; it is just so limited to me.

I have helped spear head CAD Standard programs for 2 companies already and all I can say is. God help you!
LOL, Just kidding, it is actually..eh hemm, very challenging

I always say that it is best when upper management is behind you on it.

You did job my memory on one thing.

To the question about starting with stb; that is a yes, however, ctb can be converted to stb as mentioned by Remark; if you do that, I would make a copy of the ctb first, just to be safe.
Also, I prefer to share ctb and stb files on the network for the uniformity. We had a custom.ctb and a custom.stb as well, if the user needed a special change, but they were also told that the files were going to be overwritten each night by a script, to which they were; this way if anyone screwed up an original, we overwrote them from another location.

Also, on the other question; you reminded me that we started our drawing with one of two templates, that is ctb or stb. Then we changed it to all stb templates.

So, an old drawing can be converted or you can decide, any new projects, going forward are stb and ctb is legacy.
It is a bit of a pain for a while because you have to support both but in time, that will wither down.

So, yes, to start an new drawing, it must be created with an stb drawing template.

Good luck

ML

Actually I quoted the OP and then was giving some links on articles that better define why someone might want to use one or the other.

[ML0940]

Oh. I'm sorry
Your end quote was not there and it appered to be a repeating question LOL

I thought that I had answered that :)

I will look at the link also, thank you

I can not see too many reason why someone would want to continue using ctb.

Yes, it is easier to work with but stb gives you so many more options, color wise.

ML

[ML0940]

Richard,
I just read the whole article, it is very good, thanks

For al the reasons that they mentioned, I really do prefer stb, however, in my last two postitions, the need to share .dwg files externally, outside of the comapny was not there. The last position, we made a global push to switch to stb.

So, going back to The OP's problem; I think it would be good to develop something in VBA or .net that would make the conversion process a bit easier.

Along with the 2 conversion methods nec., I also mentioned that I was using layer translator to take care of some of the layer mapping; it is very good for that. i wonder if Layer Translator is available in VBA hmmm

I actually did start old school; one year of Mech drafting and 1 year of Electrical drafting, all on the board, t-square and all.

There are some good sites out there that will tell you what lineweights that the old Leroy pens were and you can adjust your lineweights around that if your goal is to get a plot that was consistent with the look from back in the day.

It is actually a look that is familar to a lot of people still, I'm sure

ML

[Cadfused]

[quote=Cadfused;138233]Hello Everyone,
I just wanted to get a general input from our AutoCad community on your preference and why for CTB plot styles and STB plot styles. In short, I am in the Architectural field and where I work, once there was a standardised pen table list for our drawings. The big mishap was that the pen styles were saved to each computer hard drive instead of on the network and what once was a list of, maybe 7 or so CTB styles has now become many differening from work station to work station. I'm spearheading getting back to a standard so our drawings plot the same line weights from studio to studio in our facility. I asked a couple others to aid me in this. One is leaning heavy to using STB styles, though we currently use CTB. An issue, i do believe our facility would face by changing to STB would be, as i understand, the drawing has to be created and started using an STB file in order to print using it, as opposed to the originally created drawing using CTB. is this myth or fact? What do you prefer? :? I appreciate any input to aid in my decision of how to lead our Cad personnel.

Thank you,
Cadfused
quote]

A good article discussing the differences between STB and CTB.
Cadalyst.com
http://management.cadalyst.com/cadman/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=102922>

A good article on one firm's adoption of STB's. This is just one way of
many ways to set up STB standards so don't read this as the only way to use
STB's.
AUGI.com
May/June 2005 issue, page 24

Thank you for the link. I printed it and will share it with my team.

[SPDCAD]

Personally I lean towards the STB.

I am a CAD User/instructor and have been teaching and working with cad for about 20 years. I have tough a lot of users in various disciplines. I usually am hire by firms to teach cad and implement CAD standards as well as cad tips and tricks.
What I have found funny through my experience is that most people have never heard of an STB, and those who have, have heard of it but never use it.
I do come across those who know and use an stb but they are rare.
Yes a CTB is easier to learn and reinforce in a standard (my opinion), but a STB gives freedom and if implemented right one have just as much control as a CTB.
Both a CTB and STB have their pro's and cons and I believe it should be up to the user on what he prefers to use. As long as a standard STB/CTB is supplied and accessed to all, usually on a network, then one can plot a drawing either way.

Thats my two cents, and a weeks pay. :(

[ML0940]

Hi SPDCAD
I actually do similar work as you. that is, I have a freelance business that I am working to diligently to go up and going.

I actually saw the reverse in my career, if you can believe that; that is, I was introduced to STB before CTB.

When I finally saw CTB, I was a bit shocked as to the complete limitations of it.

At one company, I was actually tasked to convert a lot of CTB drawings (and some plot styles) to STB.

Creating an very good automated process for this is something that I began but never sort of came back to.

ML

[SPDCAD]

Hi SPDCAD
I actually saw the reverse in my career, if you can believe that; that is, I was introduced to STB before CTB.
ML

Yes, I can believe it. I have seen it a lot in the manufacturing field. That's is usually where I encounter the STB. I don't do a lot of teaching in that area, so that maybe why I encounter very little STB use.
I am usually consulting for the architectural, mechanical, electrical and structural fields. It maybe also the fact that i know the colleges and Universities in my area don't really teach STB's and if they do it is brief.
They usually go with the CTB to keep standards. Or that is the excuse they give me.

Good luck with the freelance work!
I myself still have a full time job. I haven't acquired enough work to go completely freelance yet.

[ML0940]

It is easier to manage in the sense that you are limiting yourself to 9 line weights and colors; I mean, how complex can that be.

However, STB opens the door to about 26 line weights and infinite colors.

To me, the main problem with CTB is trying to manage your drawings visually.

If I see a tree, I want it green, just as if I see water, I want it blue.
May be they have trouble seeing the line weight as working independently of the color chosen on screen?

It is likely an excuse (from them) not to move forward.

Thank you for the well wishes.

I also work as well as I do not have a large customer base myself either. Also, I would like to get into a few freelanve endeavors so no to put all of my eggs in one basket.
People have paid me for writing in the past as well; that is completely seperate of CAD but nonetheless, freelance work.

I wish you the best as well

Would you mind if I were to pvt message you?
Perhaps we could compare notes


ML

[Rockford]

My short one is I've used STB exclusively since 2000 and don't know much about CTB at all. But I chose to use it because I wanted to create my own Layer Colors and Line Weight in a way that makes sens to me.

But still need some imput on the viewport plotting to monochrome.STB. Cant get mine to plot in Black colored layers plot out in gray tones.

Rockford

[ML0940]

Hi Rockford

Yep, you said it perfectly


I chose to use STB because I wanted to create my own Layer Colors and Line Weight in a way that makes sense to me.


I personally think CTB sucks!
What it is in short, is colors 1-9
1 being the thinnest pen and 9 being the thickest

So, people that have used it for years know that red is the thinnest and 9 is the thickest.

You are totally limited (w CTB) to color selection and line weights.

For your problem, specifically, why don't you use gray scale colors, like 256 etc?

ML

[NBC]

I don't understand how CTB is limited to linking a particular colour to a particular lineweight.
To me, that is just set up incorrectly.
All my CTB's plot according to what the colour and linetype are set to in the Layer Properties.
As for being limited to only 256 colours, I personally find that is usually more than adequate; as most people couldn't tell the difference visually between colours 10 and 20, for instance.

But then, it's all relative; one person's tomato is another person's tomato - and that's part of the beauty of CAD

[ML0940]

HI NBC
Yes, thank you for he clarification; this is true, you can use any 9 color selections, on screen with CTB and 9 lightweights that are dictated by the color, no?

With STB, you can use any color, COMPLETELY independent of the line weight and you can use up to 26 line weights, I think

The big selling point for STB is that the user can use any color on screen and the line weight is associated the layer name, NOT the color

As you said, to each his own
No hard feelings :)

ML

[skipsophrenic]

CTB lad myself, have heard of STB's but haven't really looked into them to be honest. CTB for me allows me to see on screen what plot will look like in print preview

[NBC]

HI NBC
Yes, thank you for he clarification; this is true, you can use any 9 color selections, on screen with CTB and 9 lightweights that are dictated by the color, no?

With STB, you can use any color, COMPLETELY independent of the line weight and you can use up to 26 line weights, I think

The big selling point for STB is that the user can use any color on screen and the line weight is associated the layer name, NOT the color

As you said, to each his own
No hard feelings :)

ML

I have no hard feelings.
If the CTB is setup correctly, it can be a completely WYSIWYG system; and for that very reason I have never ventured into STB files.
As far as I know CTB is not restricted to 9 colours.
With CTB also, you can use any colour irrespective of lineweight or linestyle; as ideally these should all be set to be "Use Object ***"

*** = colour and/or lineweight and/or linetype
The way I have setup CTB's and will continue to do so relies at all times on the setup contained with the Layer Properties. It is not restricted in any way, as far as I can see.

[SPDCAD]

Would you mind if I were to pvt message you?
Perhaps we could compare notes
ML

Anytime, always willing to compare notes.

[ML0940]

NBC
It's not restricted to 9 line weights?
Also, the color selection in CTB dictates the line weight.

In STB, you can use any color, as the color is separate from the line weight

That is why it is called a
Color Dependent Table
as opposed to a
Style Dependent Table

If you have never used STB, then you really can not make a determination as to which one is better, can you?
Of course that is completely subjective.

I have used both and I can say with all confidence that STB is much more expansive as you are able to create like 26 styles that are associated with the layer and not COLOR dependent.

Again, it is whatever you are comfortable with :)

ML

[NBC]

<sighs> I give up.
Fair enough, lineweight is in a way connected to colour; but when you have the whole of the CTB file set to be As Object, it matters not a jot; as all settings will be determined by what is set using Layer Properties.
I think STB can do this also; but I believe (rightly or wrongly) that CTB is far easier to manage across multiple sites.

[ML0940]

Fair enough, line weight is in a way connected to color; but when you have the whole of the CTB file set to be As Object, it matters not a jot; as all settings will be determined by what is set using Layer Properties.
I think STB can do this also; but I believe (rightly or wrongly) that CTB is far easier to manage across multiple sites.


Hi NBC,
Not in a way, the line weight IS connected to the color in CTB
Let's take the first 5 colors as an example, 1-6
Red, Yellow, Green, Cyan, Blue and Magenta

Using a CTB table:
If you do a test plot using these 6 colors;
Name your layers 1-6, using each color respectfully.
You will notice that red will be the thinnest line and Magenta will be the thickest line.

Now, if you do the same test with a
STB pen style table
The plot style option will be available in your layer properties.
If you click on the plot style, you will see that you can make the layer ANY lightweight under the sun unlike with CTB to where Auto Desk predetermines the line weight for you, based on the color selection, in CTB, irregardless of the color of the layer

So, in STB, you now have 2 separate things to consider, that is layer properties, such as color, line type etc and Plot styles which work independently of the layer color.
Think of plot styles in the same way as you would think of a line type. They are independent but associated to a layer, for a specific use.

Also, you can make the line weights by Object in STB

ML

[NBC]

Hi NBC,

Using a CTB table:
If you do a test plot using these 6 colors;
Name your layers 1-6, using each color respectfully.
You will notice that red will be the thinnest line and Magenta will be the thickest line.
ML

The way I have setup my CTB file, this does not happen at all, not even remotely.
The lineweight of all plots is controlled by the Layer Manager.
Have I not said that often enough in this thread already ?

[CmdrDuh]

I use CTBs all the time, and I have never had my lineweights go from red the thinest to 9 the thickest.

[rkent]

The LW are not predetermined, open the CTB and set them to any of the 26 LW available to you.

There are good arguments for using STB, but things get confused when invalid information is passed around.

[ML0940]

You have, I just never quite understood what you are doing
Anyhow, it doesn't matter, as long as it works for you

Case closed :)

ML

[StykFacE]

The way I have setup my CTB file, this does not happen at all, not even remotely.
The lineweight of all plots is controlled by the Layer Manager.
Have I not said that often enough in this thread already ?
You still dont have the control you do with STB though. because you cannot set the lineweight to an entity by object like you can with STB that automatically overrides it. It is either pre-determined by the CTB file as ByObect, ByColor, or in the Layer Manager. but once you set the CTB file as ByObject then the color doesn't become a factor at all, and you ALWAYS have to set it ByObject which is not effecient. :)

[NBC]

Everything is set to be ByObject - colour, lineweight and linetype.
I don't need more control than that. Also, the users that I support do not need more than that; otherwise things would spin out of control.

This will be my last post on this thread.
I've tried explaining how I set up CTB files, but none of you seem to quite get it.
I have all the control I want / need; so there is no need to fiddle about with anything else.

[ReMark]

In the end it is what works best for the CAD operator and his/her company. Personally, I do not use STB as I have been a long time AutoCAD user who grew up using CTB. I have made an effort though to control more of my lineweights from within the drawing via Layer Manager. I use just a handful of CTBs to plot all my drawings no matter if they are on a 24x36 size sheet or a 8.5x11 size sheet or anything inbetween (11x17 and 18x24). The choice of CTB vs. STB may also have been influenced by who trained you. Remember, it's the end result that matters, not necessarily how you got there.

[StykFacE]

Everything is set to be ByObject - colour, lineweight and linetype.

No it's not. Look here:

Under a CTB Plot Style, you DO NOT have control. It's grayed out.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3018/2886770951_49d8bf0bd7_o.jpg

After typing CONVERTPSTYLES and choosing the STB style of your choice, you DO have control. It becomes available.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3187/2886770961_6a905edff0_o.jpg


I don't need more control than that. Also, the users that I support do not need more than that; otherwise things would spin out of control. That's fine, and I agree with you that you probably have all the control you want or need. But to me you are saying that a CTB plot style has just as much control over STB, and you're wrong. Especially about the "ByObject" control feature as I have noted above.


I've tried explaining how I set up CTB files, but none of you seem to quite get it. I see that, and it's funny to me that "we don't quite get it" when we're explaining STB plot styles to you. You have never used STB plot styles right? So how is it that you know so much about them? :)

[NBC]

I don't profess to know much about STB's.
And you have the wrong end of the stick about setting things By Object. That is done inside the CTB file itself, and so it refers to whatever is setup within the Layer Manager. So therefore, the Layer Manager decides how things are plotted, and not any CTB file.
When used in conjunction with the tickbox "Display plot styles" it provides a seamless WYSIWYG environment which is so simple to use and gives the user an element of personal control within the company standards; without being too restrictive or complicated.

[hotrodz0321]

unless someone in your firm can come up with a few good reasons on why switching over to STB's would be significantly advantageous then I would recommend sticking with what you've got.

[ReMark]

Is it bear season already? I see that the traps are being laid even as we speak.

[dk_xcalibur]

Hi, I'm new to the forum and I'm in need of some help regarding CTB & STB.

Currently we use CTB in my office but we have recently joined with other offices to form a design group and the standards used by those other offices use STB. I have changed my settings under "Options", "Plot and Publish", "Plot Style Table Settings", "Default Plot Style Behavior for New Drawings", "Used Named Plot Style". I then try to create a new drawing using STB but all new drawings that I create continue to use CTB..........Please help!:unsure:

I have also tried using "CONVERTPSTYLES" in combination with "CONVERTCTB" with little success.

[rkent]

Once you make that change in options to use name plot style you must close and reopen autocad. Also, if you are calling a template upon opening autocad that might be a ctb file and will create a ctb based new drawing.

You should be able to use the .new command (notice the dot) and then pick a template that is set up for stb.

convertpstyles should work fine.

[dk_xcalibur]

Once you make that change in options to use name plot style you must close and reopen autocad. Also, if you are calling a template upon opening autocad that might be a ctb file and will create a ctb based new drawing.

You should be able to use the .new command (notice the dot) and then pick a template that is set up for stb.

convertpstyles should work fine.

Thank you. I was using acad.dwg when starting a new drawing instead of one of the stb templates. Everything worked. :)