Pc Question

[john1983]

Hi all happy new year to everyone. :)

Ive just got a quick question to ask, At the moment im doing rendered drawings of office furniture layouts and they are taking ages, I only have one pc and when im rendering I cant do anything else on my pc so I have to wait around for a good hour or so while the pc does its thing. Im not too sure what spec my pc is but I have been told its a good one by our previous cad designer, what pc would you recomend getting that will be powerfull enough to do rendering and other work at the same time, or should I get seperate pc to do the renderings on??

Thank you for your advice

John

[ReMark]

John: We could use some details. For all we know your computer is fine but the files sizes you are working with could be the problem.

So, first get us the specs (as detailed as possible) on your computer. Critical items are how much memory (speed of memory too), the make and model of the graphics card you're using (need to know how much video RAM is on card), the size and speed of your hard drive, the OS you are running and whether or not the service pack for 2009 has been installed. And secondly it might be helpful to know the average size of the drawing files you are working with. Let's start there.

[john1983]

I have just had a look on my system properties and this was listed below.

Windows xp 2002
service pack 3

Intel (r)
Pentium (r) D Cpu 3.20GHZ
3.21GHZ, 350GB of RAM

The sizes of the files I am using range from 1000kb to 5000kb

Im not too sure about the service pack as auto cad was installed on here for me

[ReMark]

It's highly unlikely you have 350GB of RAM. Maybe that's 3.5GB?

What make/model of motherboard are you using?

[ReMark]

"Im not too sure about the service pack as auto cad was installed on here for me."

john: One of the best things you can do for yourself and your career is to become as self-sufficient as possible. Learning little tips and tricks will make you more self-confident, self-sustaining, a better employee and a more valuable resource in your next job.

To find out the details about the version of AutoCAD you are running do the following.

At the command line type the word About then press Enter.

This should bring up the About AutoCAD dialog box.

Click on the button labeled Product Information in the upper right hand corner of the dialog box.

This should bring up the Production Information dialog box.

Look at the second line down on the left hand side. It should read Product service pack: and in the box below it there should be some information that looks similar to this: AutoCAD 2009 - English Version 3.

That's the information we are looking for.

[ReMark]

Do you have a manual for your motherboard?

What graphics card are you using?

Still need this info.

[ReMark]

To find out some information on your graphics card do the following.

Click on Start > Control Panel > Performance and Maintenance. Then click on System and next on the Hardware tab. Click on the button labeled Device Manager. Find and click on the < + > sign next to the heading Display adapters. What does it say below that?

[john1983]

sorry yes it should be 3.5

in the product information it says service pack 0 so im guessing that there isnt a service pack installed.

I have had a look and there isnt that tab but I have found out by searching in the device manager and the graphics card is a ATI fireGL V5100

I Think I have alot to learn still

[ReMark]

We all have a lot to learn john as AutoCAD continues to change with each new release.

My first piece of advice is to download and install the latest service pack. I believe they are cummulative.

3.5GB is an odd number. Maybe you have inadvertently hamstrung your computer by running more than 3GB of RAM. I know it sounds counter intuitive but it is a known problem. One work around when dealing with large files and rendering times is to alter the boot.ini file to take advantage of what is referred to as the 3GB/switch. I've done this on my XP Pro / AutoCAD 2009 computer and it does work.

We still need to get some further detail on your graphics card.

[ReMark]

I can see where you might have a problem with your graphics card. The ATI FireGL V5100 is listed as having just 128MB of onboard video RAM. That's pretty weak for doing large scale rendering. On the plus side, your graphics card is optimized for professional workstation applications based on OpenGL and DirectX 9.0. Unfortunately it is choking at this point. Sounds like you may be in need of an upgrade.

[john1983]

ahhhhhh i was just looking on the internet to see what this card is like.

I have also found the tab you mentioned earlier this is what it says below

Name: ATI FireGL V5100
Manufaturer: ATI
Chip Type: ATI FireGL V500 (0x5551)
DAC Type: Internal DAC (400Mhz)
Approx Total Memory: 128.0MB
Current Display Mode: 1280x1024 (32Bit)(75Hz)

What graphics card would you recomend getting? If I upgraded would it mean that i could render and do other work at the same time?

[ReMark]

"What graphics card would you recomend getting? If I upgraded would it mean that i could render and do other work at the same time?"

I think the place to start would be at AutoDesk and see what cards they currently give the "thumbs up" to. I would suggest picking at least two, if not three, graphics cards and then research them a bit. Make a matrix of features so you can compare them side by side. I would also suggest visiting cadalyst magazine and read their most recent articles about graphics cards. They put the cards through a series of tests using AutoCAD and rate them accordingly. Finally, with information in hand (including current retail pricing) sit down with the CAD Manager or your boss (which ever is the case) and make your case for upgrading your graphics card. Get him/her to agree on a choice then present it to the bean counters. Good luck. Let us know what you come up with. We'll give you our unbiased (?) opinions. You definitely will benefit from a graphics card with more vidRAM (I'd recommend a minimum of 512KB).

As to your question regarding rendering and working on something else at the same time I really can't say with 100% certainty. It's going to depend on a number of factors. You may well have to consider a dedicated computer just to handle renders.

[john1983]

Brilliant your a star, I will have a look and see what I can find and let you know.

Thank you do much for your help

John

[ReMark]

You're welcomed john1983. Always happy to be of service.

Another satisfied customer.:)

[john1983]

Hi REMARK

Ive been looking pretty much all day and i havent got a clue what card to get. i have found this tho, I did the 3dconfig and this came up,


3D Device
---------
Name : ATI FireGL V5100
Manufacturer : ATI
Chip set : FireGL V5100
Memory : 128.0 MB
Driver : 6.14.0010.6755
Your machine contains a certified 3D Device with a driver version that is certified.
Current application driver: direct3d9.hdi
Current Effect Status:
----------------------
Enhanced 3D Performance: Available and on
Smooth line display: Not available
Gooch shader: Available and using hardware
Per-pixel lighting: Not available
Full-shadow display: Available and on
Texture compression: Available and off

Available application drivers and effect support:
-------------------------------------------------
Software driver
Effect support:
Enhanced 3D Performance: Not applicable
Smooth line display: Not applicable
Gooch shader: Software emulation only
Per-pixel lighting: Not applicable
Full-shadow display: Not applicable
Texture compression: Not applicable
OpenGL driver: Certified
Effect support:
Enhanced 3D Performance: Available
Smooth line display: Not available
Gooch shader: Software emulation only
Per-pixel lighting: Not applicable
Full-shadow display: Not available
Texture compression: Available
Direct3D driver: Certified
Effect support:
Enhanced 3D Performance: Available
Smooth line display: Not applicable
Gooch shader: Available
Per-pixel lighting: Not available
Full-shadow display: Available
Texture compression: Available


say if i wanted to get a new computer just for rendereing what would you recomend getting? i will be doing all the drawings on the computer I have now and sending them to the computer that will only be used for rendering.

sorry about this

[ReMark]

john:

It all depends. If I'm spending your money I'm going to get the most expensive one.:lol: Probably one of the nVidia cards. I'll give it some thought and get back to you. The Stykman will have an opinion for sure.

[MaxwellEdison]

A little requisitioning tip I got from my old Supply Sergeant. Present 2 choices, the one that wins on your cost/benefit analysis and one with an edge on performance and a fairly healthy price bump. Make your pitch for the more expensive one by getting them first to agree on the need for improved performance, at this point the conversation turns more towards the cost. Just before it looks like they are going to play the "We just can't budget for that" card present the other option (cost/benefit winner) as an alternative.

This way the bean counter gets you to concede to the "lesser" card and feel they've done their job to save the company money. You've got 66.7% positive results with this strategy, they either say no, concede to the good value option or you may luck out and get the "Beast".

[ReMark]

If price is no object then the AMD ATI FireGL V8600 ($1,899 list) and the V8650 ($2,799 list) with 1GB and 2GB of vidRAM respectively offer good performance for graphically demanding applications according to cadalyst magazine (July '08). Maybe you'll luck out and the prices have dropped by now.

[ReMark]

What's you're budget? The nVidia Quadro FX1700 is a smokin' card.

[ReMark]

Here's a cadalyst magazine link for grpahics card reviews for you too:

http://management.cadalyst.com/graphics+cards

[MaxwellEdison]

I think the commas scared him off :oops:

[ReMark]

Good one Maxwell.:lol: :lol: :lol:

Shock :shock: and ouch!:ouch:

[john1983]

hahaha was just driving home from work, hmmm i recon those are a bit expensive just done a price check and they are £300, is there anything a bit cheaper maybe half that?? i will give my boss both options tho and try and push for the better one, haha

[MaxwellEdison]

Well I'm currently using the Quadro FX3500 and I really have no complaints.

[ReMark]

I would look for a card that has as much onboard vidRAM as you can afford. 256MB even 512MB might be in your price range. Above that, cards with 768M, 1GB on up get quite pricey.

You may still get some measure of relief by maxing out the memory on your motherboard (you have any idea what that limit is?) then setting the 3GB/switch (easily done) which is recognized by AutoDesk as a solution for dealing with large files. I offer this as a possible solution since you are running XP Pro. If you were on a newer system utilizing Vista then it wouldn't be necessary to go this route.

[ReMark]

Maxwell: Can you float me a loan for one of those cards? I'll pay you back over time. Can I stretch out the payments 10 years?

[john1983]

I will find out what the max memory that i can fit on tomorrow when i get back to work and let you know, how do you set the switch?

[ReMark]

You have to find then edit the Boot.ini file. Windows hides this file so you have to know how to uncover it so to speak. Then, most importantly, you have to copy this file to a safe location for retrieval and reuse if need be. Finally, you have to be very careful in what you type as this file, erroneously editted, can keep your computer from booting up. Sounds scary, I know, but it can be done safely.

[ReMark]

AutoDesk Hotfix for AutoCAD 2009 Render type problems. Start with this link:

http://images.autodesk.com/adsk/files/render_hotfix.html

[ReMark]

Enabling the 3GB switch:

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/ps/item?siteID=123112&id=9729516&linkID=9240697

[john1983]

Hi

Sorry I havent been back to you.

I have found these two cards ( the ones you two suggested ) which one is the better card? and the card that will do what I want to do

http://www.ebuyer.com/product/141521
http://www.ebuyer.com/product/154719


John

[ReMark]

John: I have to go out for a bit but I promise you I will look at the two cards. In the meantime, have you looked at the link to the hotfix for rendering?

[john1983]

Hi

Yes I have tried that but nothing seemed to change

[john1983]

sorry one other question. I am going into a meeting on monday about upgrading my pc, what would you recomend getting to upgrade the one I have already got? I have just checked and all my memory board slots are full. do you think its just the graphics card that needs changing?

[MaxwellEdison]

Honestly, I'd try to hold out a little longer and purchase a new system when Windows 7 hits street. But it's such a hard question for outsiders to answer as we don't know your job requirements,Your daily workflow, nor any idea of the budgetary allotments.

[john1983]

Thanks Maxwell I might do that then.

The only problem with my computer at the moment is im getting asked quite alot to do 3d rendered drawings of office layouts which is fine to do but they sometimes take 2-3 hours to render, in that time I cant do any other work on my pc because ends up going so slow the and the cursor judders when I move the mouse, sometimes I get pretty busy so what I would like to do is have a drawing rendering in the background while I get on with my other work. I think I might just ask for a computer that I will use just for rendering. One that has just enough spec to do this on it to do the renders and then I can leave it rendering while I carry on with other jobs.

[MaxwellEdison]

If you find yourself doing a lot of renderings, especially ones in the 2-3hour range currently...then you're going to be discussing a fairly sizeable upgrade to your PC.

First off, a 64bit operating system is a almost a must, but this may create problems incorporating drivers to an older plotter, check your plotter manufacturer for details on the 64bit drivers. And any program that works with Windows Vista should also work with Windows 7 from launch.

Secondly a multi-core processor (Quad-Core) is important, especially in conjunction with the 64bit OS as this will distribute the load more evenly across the cores and allow better multitasking.

For your graphics card I would probably shoot for the Quadro FX 3700. All reviews I've seen for it have been positive and its a better price point than most of the ATI competitors.

You'll likely want a minimum of 4 gigs of RAM, but its cheap right now so you may want to max it to what the motherboard will allow or the budget can afford. I slapped together a quick build over at Dell based on their Precision 7400 and it came in around $3,300. I'd recommend you request they budget $3,500-$4,000 as that package included 32bit Vista with no Office software, and their smallest hard drive as I'm guessing you're on network storage. Basically for you the most important things are probably the 64bit OS, Quad-Core processor (higher the bus speed the better 1333-1600 FSB), Quality Graphics card (again I recommend the Quadro 3700, but if it can be afforded the 4600 and 5600's will offer definite improvements $$$), and at least 4 gigs of RAM (667MHz minimum, 800MHz if the processor/motherboard allows).

[ReMark]

John:

Of the two video cards the FX 3700 is considered the high end solution while the FX 1700 is considered mid-range. The cards share the same base architecture and differ only in the following areas:

Frame buffer memory: 512 DDR2 (1700) vs. 512 GDDR3 (3700)
Memory bandwidth: 12.8GB/sec. (1700) vs. 51.2GB/sec. (3700)
Memory interface: 128-bit (1700) vs. 256-bit (3700)

There's no doubt in my mind that the FX 3700 will give you superior performance at a faster speed. The downside obviously is the price as the FX 3700 is higher and it also uses more electricity than the FX 1700.

[john1983]

thank you both for your help i will put it forward what has been said in the meeting on monday and see what happens

thanks again

[MaxwellEdison]

Best of luck to you.

[ReMark]

Yes, best of luck.

I think a dedicated system just to handle major rendering projects would be a step in the right direction.

I will be curious as to the exact system configuration you come up with. I recommend you consider 4-8GB of the fastest RAM the motherboard will accept. Quad-core sounds good. You have a couple of solid choices for graphics cards the only outstanding item to perhaps give some consideration to is the hard drive.

Most systems utilize a hard drive that spins at 7200 rpm. You can get a Western Digital Raptor SATA drive that spins at 10,000 rpm. Compare "seek times" on drives. The lower the number the faster the drive is. If you want to go crazy there are even 15,000 rpm SCSI drives but they are very pricey. For the price of just one of them you could buy 2 or 3 7200 rpm drives.

[MaxwellEdison]

I was working from the assumption of a networked storage, where HDD seek times don't really effect anything but startup times. If you are saving and opening the files to your machine rather than from a network then hard drive does come in to play. RPMs are king here, the higher the better. Also make sure to read up on reliability as crashes can be devastating. Configuring a second drive in a redundant RAID array helps avoid these catastrophic failures.

[ReMark]

Maxwell:

Might the OP benefit to run standalone as opposed to networked? No resources devoted to that network connection.

[MaxwellEdison]

Really it depends on the speed of the network. But with a decent 10k RPM HDD It would probably be a bit faster. You could look into leaving your current computer hooked up and on the network and use a KVM switch to allow you to go between the two PC's using the same monitors and mouse/keyboard.

[john1983]

just to let you know, my computer isnt on any kind of network at work everything is saved onto my computer because im the only designer for our company, we are a pretty small company so we only have the one cad designer

[ReMark]

Boy I would run a dedicated rendering computer so lean that smoke would rise from the vents on the back. Strip it down to the bare essentials. Know what I mean?

[john1983]

haha yeah thats what i was thinking. i think they will probably let me get the more expensive of the two graphics cards but if i say to them for the same money or a little more I can get this computer that will do my renderings for me they will probably go for the computer because it looks to be a better buy if you know what i mean, the top dogs arnt that computer minded, they like to see what they are buying

[MaxwellEdison]

The problem with running it lean is support. Most employers without dedicated IT workers end up choosing dell for their business support. Unfortunately Dell computers will not typically be "bare bones". You may be better off discussing your needs with a product assistant (i.e. Typical filesize you work on, your frequency of producing renderings, average rendering times, target rendering times, that sort of thing). There may also be a local computer store which would custom build a PC and provide support. Prices may be slightly higher, but support is local. You are at the mercy of that location however and should they hire subpar service people or go out of business you'll be without a good support structure again.

[ReMark]

By lean I meant Windows, AutoCAD and an anti-virus program that can be disabled during rendering sessions. Oh, and you'll need a browser program too.

[klusmier]

thnx 4 all tips, i was just asking myself the same question as the topicstarter did.

well done!
;)