1st angle/3rd angle projection

[Lazer]

Have any cad operators/designers ever went on the shop floor and seen how people work from your drawings?

First of all I work for a fabrication company doing engineering drawings.

I was well suprised this week and have been looking into it.

What I found and this is for New and Old frabricators on the shopfloor was only 5 in 10 knew how to read the projection symbols.

What I found was they guessed or trial and error on the way.
one said he never even looked at the symbols ever in 10 years of fabricating.
Once I explained how they worked they where amazed.

Also in my finding only 2 in 10 knew how to do trigonomatry
the 8 of them all said the same thing " learned it at school never used it as you CAD guyz work it out for us"

No one under 25 could read the projection symbols or do basic trig.

I find this alarming :shock:

[dbroada]

unfortunately I'm not surprised. When we started getting contract draughtsmen in (and not all young) who didn't know the difference I knew we were doomed. I have even had drawings returned from the shop floor asking for the (already correct) views to be corrected! :shock: Isn't it refreshing when a drawing gets correctly interpreted. :D

[Lazer]

Makes me wonder how things ever to the customer correct.
The crazy thing is they do get there in the end.

I am also in the same boat where they say drawings not right,
( its them that cannot read a drawing)
probem is thier so use to faq packet drawings fom someone who has never use cad before they dont know how to read a pro drawing correct.

[mrjangles]

I agree, I think that it's down to the standard of education, or lack of it. It's all too easy (and a lot cheaper) to pull in a button presser off the street rather than a qualified engineer. I don't know of many companies now who can MILTFD - I won't print what that stands for, if you're a draughty you should know!

[dbroada]

I agree, I think that it's down to the standard of education, or lack of it. It's all too easy (and a lot cheaper) to pull in a button presser off the street rather than a qualified engineer. I don't know of many companies now who can MILTFD - I won't print what that stands for, if you're a draughty you should know!
oh, make it like the friendly drawing :wink:
I've not encountered that one before.

[Bespoke]

I was thinking would the guys at Cadtutor help out this woodentop get his head round orthographic projection
I can never remember if 1st angle is American and 3rd angle is UK and what method of orthographic projection do architects use ?

[Lazer]

1st angle is American and 3rd angle is UK

In the railway industry (UK) 1st angle is very common.

[JD Mather]

Makes me wonder how things ever to the customer correct.

Sometimes I think I know more than I want to know about how things get done. Every time I get in an airplane, cross a bridge, walk in a building with tons of equipment suspended from the rafters...:?

[chrisdarmanin]

lets see if i remember right... the 1st one is 1st angle and the 2nd one is 3rd angle.

i did those at school when drawing on the board but now i dont use them since i draw only plans...

[Lazer]

Correct:) 10 points to you sir.:D

[chrisdarmanin]

now what is MILTFD?? never heard of it...

[dbroada]

now what is MILTFD?? never heard of it...
read my second post on the first page - friendly may not be right though

[Mr T]

Reading drawings - that's why we should all do 3D/Inventor to make sure there are always nice exploded 3D views etc to help the 'workshop guys' read our drawings right.

Nick

[Strix]

or should drawings go down there origami style so they can see how to MILTFD? :P

anyway - you can't do that in electrical - the drawings make as much sense as a London underground map :lol:

[DANIEL]

I've had similar issues with contractors and believe it or not, new drafters lol

[Geoffers]

... what method of orthographic projection do architects use ?

...there seems to be no need of a 'convention' as each view is labelled, by compass direction or perhaps significant geographic location (courtyard-, road-, railway-, elevation... I learned the conventions at school but have never need them since...

[larryspc]

THE PROPER TERM IS "MILTFD-41"
THIS IS A TERM THAT WENT AROUND A LONG TIME AGO.
WHAT IT MENT WAS:
"Make It Like The F'n Drawing Four Once" the short version - just drop the "four once"
When there was actual checkers, the designers and draftsment used to put it on the drawing to see if the checkers were doing their job.

[rkent]

lets see if i remember right... the 1st one is 1st angle and the 2nd one is 3rd angle.

i did those at school when drawing on the board but now i dont use them since i draw only plans...

Everyone in the States uses 3rd angle. Not sure what countries use 1st angle.

In Inventor you can toggle it to generate one or the other so someone is using 1st angle.

[Tankman]

Trig, my favorite subject.

Geometry comes in a close second.

As a fabricator, steel, we worked to drawings and had no need for math.
All was on the drawings, to scale, exact. Still fun being a steel fabricator.

Angles, lengths, structural shapes, all on the drawings. Piece of cake!

[khoshravan]

THE PROPER TERM IS "MILTFD-41"
THIS IS A TERM THAT WENT AROUND A LONG TIME AGO.
WHAT IT MENT WAS:
"Make It Like The F'n Drawing Four Once" the short version - just drop the "four once"
When there was actual checkers, the designers and draftsment used to put it on the drawing to see if the checkers were doing their job.

Dear larryspc


I am a non-native English speaker member of this forum.
I didn't understand the meaning of MILTFD.:( If possible please give some more explanation on MILTFD with 41 and wo 41:cry:

Also I didn't understand the story behind 1-st angle and 3-rd angle. If it doesn't bother, please explain for non-natives. Thanks

[ReMark]

MILTFD means the fabricator should not deviate from the drawing. Build/fabricate the object "as shown". 41=Four Once. It's a numerical equivalent of the first letter of each word.

[SLW210]

See if this helps on 1st vs 3rd Angle Projection (http://www.technologystudent.com/designpro/ortho1.htm)

[khoshravan]

See if this helps on 1st vs 3rd Angle Projection (http://www.technologystudent.com/designpro/ortho1.htm)


Dear SWL210

Thanks for your link. I read it. This is what we have learned in University but I don't remember if it was tought under 1st angle or 3rd angle. (that was long time ago!). Anyway in Iran we also use 1st angle method.
Although I should mention that with outbreak of computer, it has changed tremendously and seldom the school era rules are obeyed.

Also in my opinion, with 3D techniques available, I see less room for those old techniques. Like as many other fields, computer has revolutionized working methods and techniques and some of them should be rewritten for school and university curriculum.

[ReMark]

Good drafting technique established back in the days when drawings were done manually, in my opinion, should not be abandoned just because we went to CAD. Too many people who learn CAD have failed to learn good drafting technique and it shows.

[khoshravan]

MILTFD means the fabricator should not deviate from the drawing. Build/fabricate the object "as shown". 41=Four Once. It's a numerical equivalent of the first letter of each word.

Dear ReMark
As Larry mentioned it stands for:
"Make It Like The F'n Drawing Four Once"

But what is the meaning of F'n and what is "first letter of each word"?

[ReMark]

For...like "Four" = 4
Once... = 1
This: 41

"F'n" is an abbreviation for a nasty four letter word which I will not type here.

[khoshravan]

For...like "Four" = 4
Once... = 1
This: 41

"F'n" is an abbreviation for a nasty four letter word which I will not type here.

I understand the 2nd part.8) Some how I understand the first part.:wink: Totally I get the point but not completely.:?
What is amazing for me is: Do you use this expression under official drawings to tell the shop workers to check the drawing?!? Unbelievable.:shock: I hope I have misunderstood it.

[ReMark]

I personally do not use this abbreviation nor would I recommend its use.

In our engineering department we have, as one of our general notes, that the fabricators consult with the project engineer or designer when there are any questions about or discrepancies in the drawings. We all have to work together so there is no need to instill any animosity between departments.

[JD Mather]

Also in my opinion, with 3D techniques available, I see less room for those old techniques.

3D does not negate "old techniques".
A 2D drawing is a 2D drawing, whether it originates as 2D or is generated from 3D.
The standards are the same.

Also, as a machinist I saw plenty of drawings that if I made it like the fine drawing I would be making a pile of (s)crap.
Plenty of engineers (by whatever name) don't know what they are doing.

[dbroada]

Good drafting technique established back in the days when drawings were done manually, in my opinion, should not be abandoned just because we went to CAD. Too many people who learn CAD have failed to learn good drafting technique and it shows.totally agree.

[nestly]

I do shop drawing and prefab drawings all the time. I never use projection symbols, nor do I pay particular attention to them when present.

[SLW210]

I prefer the fifth of Jack projection. :ouch:

[khoshravan]

I prefer the fifth of Jack projection. :ouch:

Is this another method of orthogonal projection?

[ReMark]

khoshravan: I think SLW210 was making a joke re: "fifth of Jack" projection.

[SLW210]

As in, the drawing will look better after drinking a bottle of Jack Daniel's whiskey (with an e).

[nukecad]

Good drafting technique established back in the days when drawings were done manually, in my opinion, should not be abandoned just because we went to CAD. Too many people who learn CAD have failed to learn good drafting technique and it shows.

Hear, Hear!

A lot of the questions that get asked on the CAD forums are of the form "HOW CAN I DRAW THIS SHAPE" usually for a simple draughting / geometric construction.

I don't blame the person asking the question, I blame whoever trained them.
It seems that the basics of draughting construction are no longer being taught and if the CAD programme doesn't have an icon for a particular construction then the user is at a loss.

[dbroada]

where's the GET COFFEE icon????