Annotative Schmanotative

I was wondering how well others have mastered the art of using annotative text and dimensioning in their work. I admit I don't fully grasp the procedures used with this area but I recently prepared a drawing using annotative text.

In the model I placed all kinds of text around the floor plan and some details I was working with. Some text was designed to show up only in the 1/4"=1'-0"

scaled viewports while others were designed to show up only in larger 3/4" and 1"=1'-0" scaled viewports. Some text was needed no matter which viewport I used.

The problem came when other people at the office went to edit my drawing. Many of them had no idea what annotative text meant and simply went to the boss complaining that I should be fired for making such a messy floor plan with text running all around. Once I showed them what I had done they were still not happy and the boss fired me.

Well I'm on to a new job now and before I start working with annotative text again I would like to hear from others how it works out for you.

I tried it (quite recently) just to say I did but can't think of a day-in-day-out use for it. We do all our notes, callouts, leaders and dimensioning in our layouts. Saves a lot of hassle as far as I'm concerned. One big plus: no new system variables to learn.

Fired for using annotative text and dimensioning? Really? Wow!

I would make sure the new office wants to use annotative functions first, if not leave it alone.

I use annotative functions and it works fine for me, great for the example you gave where you have different vp scales.

Don't get me wrong. I could see where they might come in handy but for the moment anyway our company has no real need to use the annotative scaling features.

I was hoping someone could give me a clue as to how they spread text and dimensions around so as not to make the model look too busy. The folks at the previous company I worked for were long time AutoCAD users but knew nothing about the new annotative features in the software. Instead of asking me about my model they jumped to the conclusion that I didn't know what I was doing. And yes, this along with the design decisions I made on the project was what they said was reason for termination.

Now are you ready for this. A few days ago I drove by the jobsite where the large steel stair structure I designed had been installed. And who's design do you think they used....if you guessed the guy who got canned, you'd be right. Also, one of my old co-workers called me shortly after I was dismissed and said it wasn't until he looked in the layouts that he saw the text and dimensions cleared up. By looking only at the model all they initially saw was text and dimensions all over the place, which they thought was poor practice. So this is why I'm asking the question of what others may have done when dimensioning and adding comments in your model using annotative feature.

I've tried using annotative dimensions, but in all honesty I think it clutters up the modelspace area too much. I've always put my dimensions and such in paperspace but we briefly allowed using annotative dimension because a couple of people refused to use paperspace. It was a lot easier than having 20 different text/dimension styles. I eventually showed them the error of their ways and they conformed to putting everything in paperspace.

The firing was rather harsh, glad to hear you landed on your feet and were readily re-employed.

I'm not familiar with annotative text nor of it's benefits. I hope though for your sake you don't pull the same stunt at your new place. It sounds as though you stepped over the line at your old place and produced something that did not conform to their standards.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't have used the AT but perhaps not in a production drawing. There is nothing wrong with experimenting with new features - that's how productivity is improved but it's got to be "controlled" experimentation.

Sorry, off my soapbox now.

I was hoping someone could give me a clue as to how they spread text and dimensions around so as not to make the model look too busy.

First off, I set the SELECTIONANNODISPLAY so that it doesn't show all the Annotations when you select the objects. I hate the cluttering effect of this. To adjust the position of multiple scales, then set everything in one scale first then move onto the next scale and make adjustments. This just makes more sense to me, and gives you more quality control.

Second, it has served me best to add the scales used as a drawing Template, and turn off the ANNOAUTOSCALE. This way you won't get a huge number of Annotation Scales added without warning.

Third, use Tool Palettes to save and utilize Annotative settings to stay on track with the scale being used. This REALLY helped things with me. Another key is to use it where needed, not everything needs annotative scaling since not everything has the need for multiple scaled Viewports. And when I use annotative scaling in a certain area, I override the Viewport in the Paperspace layout to another color so what I always know that the area shown has Annotative Scaling applied to it. This just simply helps me distinguish when it's being used and when not for future reference.

Hope this will help in some ways.

EDIT: Another thing.... instead of using Dimension Leaders / Qleader's, use Multileaders instead, especially when using Annotative Scaling. You will be so glad you did, they work much much better than the old Dimleader / Qleader's.

I quite like annotation scaling but like to keep it simple..

The trouble with placing dims in paper space is if you need to see the same dims in another sheet at another scale ...e.g. 1:100 & 1:50 you have to draw them all again...!!! ****** that as the first rule I learnt in cad was never ever draw the same thing twice.

I like to annotate blocks mostly i.e. room labels spec tags stuff that does need to be seen at various scales.

Of course the art of what to show at what scale seems lost on most people these days...

Stykface seems to have the right idea & is quite right as far as i am concerned, as I also like to also use Multileaders with blocks in works a treat.

Anyway here’s a few things I like to remember.

1. The Annotation scales are applied directly to the object.
   
2. The viewport scale should always match the annotation scale & only drawings that have been zoomed in, i.e. unlocked viewports may need setting up again. Always lock your viewports.
   
3. Moving Annotative Block with Multiple Scales. Moving the different scales is dependent on the method you use to move them. If you highlight a block and move it via the base point grip, only the current scale will move. But, if you use the move command and then select the block, all scales will move relative to their current position.
   
4. Always turn off Autoscale.
   
5. Never display anno objects at all scales only current scale.

Still i must confes hatch's ...what a nightmare to annotate, any help would be great.

p.s. Bill glad you found another job ...teach them well as everybody must understand or else you must not use annoation..All or none

If you never, ever draw the same thing twice why would you need to see the same dims on another sheet? If you show them you have just violated the cardinal rule haven't you?

If you never, ever draw the same thing twice why would you need to see the same dims on another sheet? If you show them you have just violated the cardinal rule haven't you?

well, that's all relative. For instance, we use multiple scales on our Plan View duct layout. Well, whether we view an area that is ⅛" with a blowup on another sheet to ¼" for a compacted area, well there is still ductwork that shows up on both plans, and it makes it really inconvenient for our field guys to flip between pages to see what size the same ductrun is. So we keep it on both, but what we can't show on the ⅛" scale we show on the ¼" scale.

There's a big difference between drawing things twice and allowing them to appear more than once in a drawing or set of drawings. I use view ports to make a plan view show up in 1/8"=1'-0" or 1/4"=1'-0" or whatever scale I'm using. Some notes and/or dimensions need to appear in more than one view. And annotative lets you do this. But the model gets busy and that's a pain.

Now that I talk my way through that it dawns on me that you could use different colors for text that appears in different scales. Anyway one can to get the text and dimensions easier to differentiate.

There's a big difference between drawing things twice and allowing them to appear more than once in a drawing or set of drawings.

You basically summed up everything I was trying to say in this sentence.

well, that's all relative. For instance, we use multiple scales on our Plan View duct layout. Well, whether we view an area that is ⅛" with a blowup on another sheet to ¼" for a compacted area, well there is still ductwork that shows up on both plans, and it makes it really inconvenient for our field guys to flip between pages to see what size the same ductrun is. So we keep it on both, but what we can't show on the ⅛" scale we show on the ¼" scale.

One word I work for “Architects”

Sure it’s the old cardinal rule never draw the same thing twice of course there were times when it was broken (& still are i guess but i try to follow that little rule as much as possible)

Example using room name number block non annotative

Take a 1:50 part plans & 1:100 or even 1:250 sheet files, I will always need to show the room name & numbers in all layouts.

So what do I do place the room block in each title sheet at a different size etc I think not as unlike you guys nothing get placed onto the sheet file other than revision clouds (details being the exception to the rule as they are mostly stand alone drawings 1:10 1:20 etc still i did at one point try !!! but even revit cannot manage this let alone standard AutoCad)

I used to have a multiple scaled block controlled by lisp that had different size text on different layers placed into an xref then place in the sheet file & manage by layer lisp control.

Surely the whole reason for annotation is showing the same information in different viewports or drawings sheet files at deferent scales there by taking away the need to have the same text on different layers at different sizes.

Example using room name number block annotative

We now place all our anno room blocks in an xref or zoned xref depending on size of building per level, place that xref into the sheets & problem solved as long as the xref is managed correcty & the sheets set to show objects at current scale only.

As i set up all the sheets in advance this is easy to achive (Project Cad Manager).

So I guess what I am trying to say is after experimenting we now use annotation to control visibility rather than layers, so far it seems to work as long as the pervious rules are applied.

I also control section/elev markers & dimensions in the same xrefs as we have different dims for 1:50 (room layouts) & 1:100 GA’s I have all my annotative objects in xrefs per each level. Sure I might have a level broken down into zones but it amounts to the same thing.

So far the anno experiment seems to be working as it makes controlling the anno blocks dims & text very easy as they are all contained in the one or more xref per level & i know just where to look should we have a problem.

This example just for GA’s (general arrangement plans) & our 1:50 part plans hope it makes sense.

I'm resurrecting this old thread due to a new issue on the same subject which has arisen. And as the original post states, I really did get canned from a job back in 2009 for trying to use Annotative text. So this time I'm trying to be extra sensitive to the client's need.

1. I have a template file with four layout tabs. One for each of the sheet sizes we use, A, B, C and D.
   
2. The model space contains a plan and sectional view of an object along with dimensions and text.
   
3. The LISP code which automates the entire drawing inserts a single view port on each layout tab and then zooms to the extents of the model space objects. Works pretty good...but....
   

The text size chosen for the model space is 1-1/2" and that works pretty good too, until I start examining the larger C and D size sheets. The text get's rather large and while it looks good to tired old eyes like mine, it does not conform to the drafting standards we use around here.

So of course, Annotative text would seem to be the answer. To date, I have had no less than three different consultants look at this and not one of them can come up with a workable method. I have read countless articles on how to use Annotative text and just can't seem to grip why it doesn't work as described.

I have created a new text style, set it to annotative and then set the text in paperspace to always be 1/8" in height. I then set the AnnoScales for the model space, the paper space, the view port, everything I can imagine but what I end up with is text in the model space so small you can't read it. Or text in the paper space that doesn't appear at all, or any one of another 1/2 dozen undesirable situations with trying to achieve the results needed. Or times when the text almost looks right but the layout is such that is just doesn't flow with the drawing orientation...hope I described that right.

If anyone who is positive you can really resolve this issue for me, I'm willing to pay for your time. Actually, my boss is willing to pay. But I'd really like to avoid what's happened in the past with experts who get it to the same place as I do and then say, "Well it should work!".

Bill-

First things first. You say you have a routine that creates a viewport and then does a zoom extents. So after that do scale the viewport to a standard size, like 1/4"=1'-0", etc?

And what do you mean by "I set text size in PS to 1/8", where and how are you doing that? If in the text style manager, that text size should be set to 0.

Little confusing there Bill so please if you're able just post the drawing & i'll take a look see for you as nobody wants to get canned for trying to do a good job & no payment necessary for success or failure (but i may scale all to mm as not so good with the old feet & inches but don't worry i will scale back) please have the view ports on the layouts locked at the correct scales & views you need.

But i am UK time so off to bed soon but will take a look if your able to post drawing asap if not may have to think of some other method.

Bill,

I would go to post #8 and copy and paste that and then print it out. The advice given will keep your model space from being cluttered, and will get you going on most of what you are after.

Post 8 by tzframpton is excellent, my office now likes SELECTIONANNODISPLAY turned on as we have our text/dims in different locations for different scale viewports & its helps them keep track of location of said text/dims but i agree in this case.

1. No need for annotative text in Paper Space at all.

2. Make sure viewports have there annotative display scale set correctly (show annotation objects at current scale only & not show annotation objects always).

3. Always turn of autoscale control it yourself.

It sounds like you are trying to use annotative scaling exactly the way it was intended. I think this is going to come down to one of those "Ah ha" moments. That one little thing that you are missing. If you could post even a small portion of a .dwg, I'm sure someone could sort it out for you free of charge.