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rkmcswain

Autodesk and Bentley

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rkmcswain
.... autodesk could learn a lot from Bentley...

 

I'm not trying to turn this into a Bentley vs Autodesk debate (and if it does, we can prune this out to a new thread...), but what other things did you have in mind?

I will admit, I don't know a whole lot about the Bentley line, but I've only seen one thing that I prefer from them over Autodesk, and that is their license management tools.

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dompie
I'm not trying to turn this into a Bentley vs Autodesk debate (and if it does, we can prune this out to a new thread...), but what other things did you have in mind?

I will admit, I don't know a whole lot about the Bentley line, but I've only seen one thing that I prefer from them over Autodesk, and that is their license management tools.

 

Both have their positive and negative points but in my opinion Microstation get's better with each new release, which I can't say about autocad.

It may be not such a bad idea to start a new thread about that :)

Edited by dompie
spelling error

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rkmcswain
Both have their positive and negative points but in my opinion Microstation get's better with each new release, which I can't say about autocad.

It may be not such a bad idea to start a new thread about that :)

 

Yea, I'm not taking one side over another....just curious about any new MS features that are way out ahead of what Adsk is doing...

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tzframpton
....Microstation get's better with each new release, which I can't say about autocad.
What makes you believe that AutoCAD doesn't get better with each new release? I find decent additions every release, and every 2-3 releases AutoCAD gets some outstanding and much needed items, too.

 

At my firm, it is 75% civil which has equal parts MicroStation and AutoCAD users, but mostly MicroStation. My department is 99.9% AutoCAD and Revit, with the occasional MicroStation requirement.

 

MicroStation without Geopak is a sin at my company. But I will say this... since my company is totally divided with MS and AC, each user who has the most experience with one platform prefers that platform. Period. It literally all comes down to how many years you've been using which platform. People who have started and have mostly used MS and jump in AutoCAD, hate AutoCAD. People who have started and have mostly used AutoCAD and jump in MS, hate MicroStation. I'll tell you one thing that MicroStation could learn from AutoCAD (not "Autodesk"), is friggin' Tool Palettes. I mean, come on now!! "Browsing" for content is soooo Windows 3.1.

 

:)

 

*EDIT*

To explain further regarding AutoCAD not getting better with each new release: AutoCAD, every single release, is mimicking Revit and Inventor 100%. It's really trying to bridge that gap as much as possible.

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BIGAL

My comment the only thing I noticed over the years was the amount of non programming by Microstation users versus lisp in Autocad in particular maybe because it used MDL which was a bit higher order language and more difficult to learn quickly. If you use microstation you adopt it and if use Autocad you adopt it.

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Tyke

My company is very much like Tannar's and I can only endorse what he says. But unlike Tannar all of our people use both MS and AutoCAD on a daily basis.

 

One thing that we found over the years is that MS is more stable than AutoCAD and most importantly as soon as you draw something it is immediately and automatically saved in the drawing database. We have never lost any MS data due to crashes, but occasionally a file becomes corrupt and can no longer be opened. MS V7 and V8 formats are not compatible and that means backward compatibility can be an issue. We have one client who uses both V7 and V8 and passing data between them can be a nightmare, opening a V7 file in MS V8 there comes a question if you want to convert it to V8 and at the same time a warning that it will not be possible to convert it back. MS has many nice features, but so does AutoCAD.

 

Unlike AutoCAD Microstation has a VBA Macro Recorder which has been very useful over the years for putting together small macros. But you need a different mind set to do larger programs with it. Like BigAl said there seems to be very few people who do any MDL programming.

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dompie
What makes you believe that AutoCAD doesn't get better with each new release? I find decent additions every release, and every 2-3 releases AutoCAD gets some outstanding and much needed items, too.

 

Adding features to a program every year that 90% of the users probably will never use and changing the version of the files every 3 years so it isn't fully compatible anymore are things I can't call userfriendly.

After each update/upgrade we're spending hours to get everything working and looking the same as it did before. Ok, maybe there is a way of doing this faster but they can't expect a "user" to find this without telling them.

Also the fact that autocad is getting "heavier" on your system every year and takes ages to load is sommething that's bugging me for years.

 

But I will say this... since my company is totally divided with MS and AC, each user who has the most experience with one platform prefers that platform. Period. It literally all comes down to how many years you've been using which platform. People who have started and have mostly used MS and jump in AutoCAD, hate AutoCAD. People who have started and have mostly used AutoCAD and jump in MS, hate MicroStation. I'll tell you one thing that MicroStation could learn from AutoCAD (not "Autodesk"), is friggin' Tool Palettes. I mean, come on now!! "Browsing" for content is soooo Windows 3.1.

 

:)

 

*EDIT*

To explain further regarding AutoCAD not getting better with each new release: AutoCAD, every single release, is mimicking Revit and Inventor 100%. It's really trying to bridge that gap as much as possible.

 

The toolpalettes are indeed something that MS lacks but even with it's own "cells" and windows 3.1 browsing it's still an effective way of working (why fix it if it aint broken?)

 

I started many years ago with Autocad 12 and at one point I got in contact with MS95 and absolutly hated it but since MSV8i came out it's stable, intuitive and faster than Autocad.

 

The way they think at autodesk doesn't convince me at all. They should spend more time on improving Autocad and wait ie. 2 or 3 years to update instead of bringing out a half finished product every year where you need to get the service pack ASAP.

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dompie
My comment the only thing I noticed over the years was the amount of non programming by Microstation users versus lisp in Autocad in particular maybe because it used MDL which was a bit higher order language and more difficult to learn quickly. If you use microstation you adopt it and if use Autocad you adopt it.

 

Maybe it's because of most of the things you need are already in MS?? :P

.... You're right, there are only a few MDL's but I really don't need more of them.

I can't write any code myself (not even lisp) so I always have to doe with what I can find

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dompie
Yea, I'm not taking one side over another....just curious about any new MS features that are way out ahead of what Adsk is doing...

 

Just to point out one thing I'm missing in autocad is the possibility to load a file more than once as reference in your modelspace (ie. the sectiondetail of a floor) and change the display options of that file in a different way for each location. In autocad you need to create a block with different viewstyles or something like that.

 

In MS you can even reference your own drawing (which can contain multiple modelspaces) into itself.

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rkmcswain
The way they think at autodesk doesn't convince me at all.

 

One of my favorite quotes:

 

"The basic premise which you must keep in mind is that the interests of the shareholders supersede everything else."

-sboon, 5-12-2013

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tzframpton
Adding features to a program every year that 90% of the users probably will never use and changing the version of the files every 3 years so it isn't fully compatible anymore are things I can't call userfriendly.
Okay... now I get the picture, after reading this sentence. You obviously have an emotional detachment from AutoCAD since you clearly cannot base this opinion as fact. There's no way you can speak on behalf of all the AutoCAD users in all the world, in what they "use" or "don't use".

 

(why fix it if it aint broken?)
It may not be "broken" but it certainly isn't intuitive. At least AutoCAD moves forward and doesn't stand still in stagnant water because of the dead-set-in-their-ways, don't-like-change, "old timer" mentality kicks in with MS users.

 

They should spend more time on improving Autocad....
I disagree. My personal opinion (and many here will disagree with this) is they should either start completely over with AutoCAD and redesign the platform as a whole from scratch, or downsize the development support for it. AutoCAD is 30+ years old and it shows, especially after you use a much newer, more intuitive CAD platform that is trade specific. I've seen on this forum and many others who use programs such as Inventor, SolidWorks and Revit (all parametric CAD applications), they admit that going back to AutoCAD is a painstaking experience and many literally choose not to use AutoCAD ever again. Heck, I was drawing up a 3D detail in AutoCAD yesterday in fact, helping a friend out with an existing set of AutoCAD files he already had and after twenty minutes, I closed AutoCAD and opened Revit, drew it up and exported. Ha, I just find it so hard to use AutoCAD anymore. I only do when I'm required to in certain jobs at my company.

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RobDraw
Just to point out one thing I'm missing in autocad is the possibility to load a file more than once as reference in your modelspace (ie. the sectiondetail of a floor) and change the display options of that file in a different way for each location. In autocad you need to create a block with different viewstyles or something like that.

 

Actually, this is possible but each reference needs to have a unique name. Just rename the first reference and then re-XREF the file. You now have a unique set of layer names, etc. for each reference.

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SuperCAD
my personal opinion (and many here will disagree with this) is they should either start completely over with autocad and redesign the platform as a whole from scratch, or downsize the development support for it. Autocad is 30+ years old and it shows, especially after you use a much newer, more intuitive cad platform that is trade specific. I've seen on this forum and many others who use programs such as inventor, solidworks and revit (all parametric cad applications), they admit that going back to autocad is a painstaking experience and many literally choose not to use autocad ever again. Heck, i was drawing up a 3d detail in autocad yesterday in fact, helping a friend out with an existing set of autocad files he already had and after twenty minutes, i closed autocad and opened revit, drew it up and exported. Ha, i just find it so hard to use autocad anymore. I only do when i'm required to in certain jobs at my company.

 

You nailed it with this comment. This is exactly how I feel. With programs like Draftsight that are free, I cannot justify the thousands of dollars it costs to purchase AutoCAN'T with everything it CAN'T do.

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tzframpton
You nailed it with this comment. This is exactly how I feel. With programs like Draftsight that are free, I cannot justify the thousands of dollars it costs to purchase AutoCAN'T with everything it CAN'T do.
Agreed about the DraftSight part.

 

I will say this... AutoCAD has a couple things that still makes them king in certain areas of my work. For one, Tool Palettes. Two, LISP routines. I do plenty of side work for a couple smaller to medium sized mechanical HVAC contractors that need shop drawings from time to time. With the LISP routines I've accumulated and the user setup I've crafted through the years, I can blow by anybody for old fashioned 2D mechanical HVAC shop drawings - hands down. But, ANYTHING related to 3D is 100% out. Revit or something else - period.

 

I'm about to changes jobs myself actually. In fact, I need to start a thread about it to inform people. I will when I get over there and settled in. Anyways, where I'm going is literally Revit only. They don't even install AutoCAD on their workstations. Makes me a happy camper for sure. And it may seem like a dumb or arrogant decision for a company to make, but I disagree. Since I'm heading over to a general contractor, all the subs have to do what the general contractor wants. So if you can't provide Revit models for your BIM and VDC designs, you're not even eligible to bid the project. But the nice thing about it, they promote any and all subs to use Revit and if you're just getting started, the company will assist in the design process free of charge to pour over the technology and favor back into the subs, which progresses the market as a whole. In the end it's been paying off apparently, because years ago some subs got on board and now they're doing fantastic with the Revit platform and everyone's benefiting from it. I know this because it was a friend who got me hired on over there.

 

Anyways, just thought I'd share is all. I know there are those who really still believe AutoCAD is never going away, and it may not for awhile, but I personally think it's on it's way out much sooner than we all might imagine. And that's coming from me, someone who used to love AutoCAD with great passion. I used to dream AutoCAD. So my opinions are sincerely honest.

 

8)

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Dinochrome
Just to point out one thing I'm missing in autocad is the possibility to load a file more than once as reference in your modelspace (ie. the sectiondetail of a floor) and change the display options of that file in a different way for each location. In autocad you need to create a block with different viewstyles or something like that.

 

In MS you can even reference your own drawing (which can contain multiple modelspaces) into itself.

 

Try inserting it, renaming the first instance and inserting it again. I've used this many times.

 

...at some levels after 25 years of Autodesk, I do empathize with you.

 

Revit/AutoCAD/Inventor should talk to each other easier.

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jmerch
Since I'm heading over to a general contractor, all the subs have to do what the general contractor wants.

 

No offense to you or the company you're going to, but just b/c it's always been the way of "subs have to do what the GC wants", doesn't make it right. We work with GC's day in and day out following their instructions which a lot of time seem to be walking off cliffs.:lol:

 

So if you can't provide Revit models for your BIM and VDC designs, you're not even eligible to bid the project. But the nice thing about it, they promote any and all subs to use Revit and if you're just getting started, the company will assist in the design process free of charge to pour over the technology and favor back into the subs, which progresses the market as a whole. In the end it's been paying off apparently, because years ago some subs got on board and now they're doing fantastic with the Revit platform and everyone's benefiting from it. I know this because it was a friend who got me hired on over there.

 

Again, doesn't make it right to dismiss companies that can't work in Revit. My point is we use Fabrication which sits on top of ACAD and we use it to coordinate and pre-fab most of our piping. Revit content is not "fabricatable" to the level we need it as of yet. They are working on it with Fabrication. However, we are able to export our content into Revit if needed, but hasn't been requested yet.

 

Regardless, Navisworks is the tool to combine all the different formats in one model for the coordination. After that it shouldn't matter what format Jim and Joe work in. There's way to get the data you need to if you're not in someone else's platform. It's not like most owners that get the final model even know what to do with it. We work with owners on Navis models and walk them through it though.

 

I do like that your new company takes the effort to train people in Revit, it's that foresight that will help the industry work together better and make a better product for the owner but should be a choice, not forced upon them. I know, I know "if you don't like it then don't bid on that job". I'm just saying. :)

 

My two cents.

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tzframpton
No offense to you or the company you're going to, but just b/c it's always been the way of "subs have to do what the GC wants", doesn't make it right. We work with GC's day in and day out following their instructions which a lot of time seem to be walking off cliffs.
So true!! Remember I come from the field. 8 years @ mechanical subcontractors. :)

 

Again, doesn't make it right to dismiss companies that can't work in Revit.
Well, this isn't entirely accurate. A company has the "right" to do as they please with any lawful business decision - regardless if it's a good choice or a bad one. If they feel Revit is the only platform they want to deal with then so be it. Obviously this isn't true, Revit is the preferred choice. On the premier projects where Revit will be required, there's already a laundry list of contractors with good relationship status that are efficient in Revit that will get the first shot at the job.

 

I guess this is my clarified response to my point above. :)

 

How you doin' man? I need more peppers!

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jmerch

Right, I understand your "technical" position and yes everyone has a right. You know what I'm getting at though :)

 

I'm good, sent you a PM...feel free to order some more peppers. We've been branching out and hopefully hitting Texas market soon. Sadly, it just takes time. :(

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tzframpton

Clean out your PM box. Here's what I was gonna reply:

 

yep!! I definitely know Carla. Never met her personally but we collaborated on the Revit user groups internally, even had to work directly a couple of times.

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jmerch

LOL, PM box clean now :)

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