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Firligic
28th Dec 2010, 05:56 am
i've read this instructions like 1000x times and i dont understand it, can someone help me.

25432

pg 8

and before these instructions i was suppose to make a title block which i did already that is 11" x 17"

so i am suppose to create a W12 x 152 I-beams
i dont understand bullet point #2. i cant picture how it suppose to llook like and how it is placed.

thank you for helping :)

Jack_O'neill
28th Dec 2010, 06:57 am
W12 x 152 is a standard structural steel shape, you should be able to find the dimensions for this in the Appendix H your text refers to or just about any steel catalog. Draw it as though it looks like a capital letter "I".

All the second bullet point says is that the dimensions for your foundation plan will go to the center of the "I". Once you've laid out your steel columns in the manner specified in the subsequent bullet points, vertical dimensions will run to the midpoints of the vertical section of the "I", and horizontal dimensions will run to the midpoint of the top (or bottom) of the "I". See below:
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ReMark
28th Dec 2010, 11:45 am
W12x152 rough dimensions

Depth = 13.71
Web thickness = 0.870
Flange width = 12.480
Flange thickness = 1.40

Source: Manual of Steel Construction, Allowable Stress Design, 9th edition AISC

Firligic
28th Dec 2010, 09:08 pm
25438

hey guys i think im still dont understand the 20 steel columns- 14 spaced around the build perimeter and six within the interior. arrange these I-beam columns on foundation plan in four evenly spaced rows of five beams each. distance between center beams is 18'-0". and for the overall dimnesions part do i just make the rectangle length of 54' and 72' high?

and about bullet point #4: how i make a 16 x 32 x 32 concrete footing?

thanks agian guys

attached here is my current drawing i know its not correct, but can you please tell me my problem. im pretty sure the measurement is correct.

Firligic
28th Dec 2010, 09:47 pm
25440

nevermind i think i got it this is the most recent drawing

nestly
28th Dec 2010, 10:42 pm
I believe you have your columns spaced at 18 inches, when they should be 18 feet.
The concrete footing described is 16 inches tall by 32 inches square, so from the top, you just show that as a 32 inch square centered around the steel column. (BTW, that footing seems far too small for a W12x152 column)

here's a quick video showing a top view of what page 8 describes.

http://www.screencast.com/t/cK1jsjb1Vyov

ReMark
28th Dec 2010, 10:54 pm
What would you recommend, size-wise, as a footing for a W12x152 column? Just curious. Thanks.

28th Dec 2010, 11:15 pm
Probably something closer to 60"x60"x24" with a bunch of #5 rebar in both directions. Without knowing the load it was taking, it's hard to say.

nestly
29th Dec 2010, 12:34 am
Yeah, 5 or 6 ft square seems a bit more reasonable for a column that heavy.

Firligic
29th Dec 2010, 01:39 am
ty ty so much for the video very very helpful ty all

yea, this is my first time creating these foundation plan stuff so i dont know whats small or big for the concrete footing, i guess i just have to follow what the direction say on page 8.

Firligic
29th Dec 2010, 05:08 am
25444

25445
heres a screen shot but for better understand i uploaded the drawing

hey guys another question from page 8-9 i dont understand how the channel beam suppose to be placed. channel beams rest on the bottom flanges of the griders. with a 1" gap form the web of the girder to the end of the channel.?? need to create pairs of channel beams, 24 of them. my attached file can you guys take another look plz

thanks again

nestly
29th Dec 2010, 06:45 am
The W12x152 beams are the vertical columns. The W12x45 girders and C9x20 channels are horizontal and are the support for the 2nd floor/roof. I didn't read the whole thing, but I didn't see where it specified the connection between the W12x45 girders and the vertical columns. The channels rest on the bottom flange of the W12x45 and attach to the web with a 4 inch angle bracket ...

Firligic
29th Dec 2010, 07:19 am
The W12x152 beams are the vertical columns. The W12x45 girders and C9x20 channels are horizontal and are the support for the 2nd floor/roof. I didn't read the whole thing, but I didn't see where it specified the connection between the W12x45 girders and the vertical columns. The channels rest on the bottom flange of the W12x45 and attach to the web with a 4" angle bracket

http://screencast.com/t/c2ljZjL0x7

wow that looks awesome, i tihkn i know what im suppose to do now. i never pictured the 3-D version to be like that. now i understand the foundation plan much much more. and you got some really really nice quality on your video's. i should download jing myself to capture stuff

cadtutor is like my online tutor thanks so much. i learn much more form you guys than these books they give me

Jack_O'neill
29th Dec 2010, 03:34 pm
wow that looks awesome, i tihkn i know what im suppose to do now. i never pictured the 3-D version to be like that. now i understand the foundation plan much much more. and you got some really really nice quality on your video's. i should download jing myself to capture stuff

cadtutor is like my online tutor thanks so much. i learn much more form you guys than these books they give me

I didn't catch whether you said you were in an actual classroom or doing this course via correspondence, but here's a suggestion for you. If you're in an actual classroom setting, why not approach the instructor about taking a field trip to an actual construction site near your school? If he or she thinks it's a good idea and gets approval from the school, I'm sure they could find one that would allow a guided tour for a little while so you and your classmates could see how some of this stuff actually looks and goes together. If that isn't possible, perhaps you could befriend someone in the trade that would show you some of the stuff on a site. Be sure you get approval from the site manager. If all else fails, take a pair of binoculars and stand outside the fence and look. Just don't trespass without permission. These sites are dangerous places especially for the untrained.

Actually seeing how it goes together can go a long way towards helping you visualize what you need to put in your drawings. Watching for an hour or two won't make you an expert, and every architect and engineer has his own way of doing things, but you can get a general idea of how it all works. There are many construction site photos on the web as well. Spend some time digging and you'll gain a better understanding of what you are trying to draw.

bbankston
29th Dec 2010, 05:50 pm
I completely agree, Jack_O'neill. Watching something get put together makes for much better understanding of what the heck you're drawing.

Firligic
30th Dec 2010, 02:32 am

well i hope i did the foundation plan correctly.

cuz now im stuck on page 11.
so what i think i understand is, I am now taking the foundation the i made and making the south elevation with it right?
from what i understand this project is in 2-D right, not 3-D??

a keyway??

but here on page 11 its tlaking about elevation. finish grade elevation 292.90, first floor elevation 293.90, second floor elevation 305.19. distance from the top footings to the finish grade is 4'-0".

i am so confused.

i feel like im doing everything wrong even my foundation plan 25462

Jack_O'neill
30th Dec 2010, 05:32 am
I think you are missing some key terminology. It's confusing because the same words are commonly used to describe different things. Maybe I can help clear that up a bit. If you are talking about views in a drawing, the "plan" view is as if you were looking straight down from above the building. The foundation "plan" at that point would represent what the building's foundation would look like if you were suspended from a crane looking straight down at it.

An exterior "elevation" view is a look at the side of the building as though you were standing on the ground looking at the building. You would create a drawing of just what you see.

The "first floor elevation" your text on page 11 refers to is the height of the floor above some known point. This can be sea level, some USGS marker, or any number of other references depending upon the architect. For your purposes at this stage, it doesn't really matter what the reference is. Since your first floor is at 293.90, and the second floor is at 305.19, subtract the smaller number from the larger one, and you find that your second floor is 11.29 feet above the first floor.

You will eventually create a "section" view. This view will be as if you had sliced the building at some point and were looking inside it. These are sometimes called "cross-sections". You will also do sections for details of walls, windows, and just about everything that goes into a building where clarification is needed on how it's built.

I would very much suggest you get hold of this book: Construction Drawings and Details for Interiors: Basic Skills by Kilmer and Kilmer. It's available on Amazon both in hardcopy and a Kindle version. They have a reader app for PC's that is a free download so you can purchase Kindle books and read them on your pc without having to have a Kindle, by the way. There may even be one or something like it in your local public library or bookstore. Any book on basic drafting will have the information you need. I suggested this one simply because I know it's easily obtainable. You may find drafting books in used bookstores, especially if you live near a college town. Many of the older texts will talk about papers and pencils and the tools of manual drafting, but don't let that put you off the book. The information about how to dimension and how create and label the various views required has not changed much. Most of the terminology is the same, with a few exceptions.

There is a common misconception that is spreading throughout many of the vocational and technical schools and even many colleges that learning how to use AutoCAD is the be all and end all of drafting. Based solely on the portion of the text you have provided, I get the impression that this course is either built on that assumption, or that they have assumed that anyone taking this course is already familiar with drafting and/or blueprint reading. Being proficient in AutoCAD without basic drafting skills is like knowing how to draw with a pencil, but never having learned to write.

Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not criticizing you at all. No one is born knowing how to do this stuff and unless someone teaches you (or you grab a book and learn it yourself) you can't possibly know what all these things mean. This is the source of your confusion. If you can get your hands on a drafting manual of some sort, a few hours of reading will clear up much of the trouble you are experiencing. As an added bonus, you'll have the book there to refer to in future when you have one of those "now what was that again?" moments. You'll be able to grab the book, hit the index and have an "oh yeah, I remember now" moment. Combine that with the help you'll find here and you'll soon have a handle on it.

Firligic
30th Dec 2010, 05:40 am
yea i know what u mean, it is the terminology that greatly confuses on every project. I thought all the books and lessons penn foster gave me was sufficient. But I guess I need to stretch out more and try that book you speak of. thank you

Jack_O'neill
30th Dec 2010, 06:16 am
yea i know what u mean, it is the terminology that greatly confuses on every project. I thought all the books and lessons penn foster gave me was sufficient. But I guess I need to stretch out more and try that book you speak of. thank you

It is very confusing at first. I don't know if early drafters had limited vocabularies and just ran out of words or what. Wait till someone asks you "what is the elevation of the elevation?" First time someone said that to me, I just stood there looking at him as if he'd just landed from Mars. Had no idea what he meant.

Here's a link to that book if you're interested: http://www.amazon.com/Construction-Drawings-Details-Interiors-Skills/dp/0470190418/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1293680663&sr=8-8#_

Like I said, it doesn't have to be that one. Any basic drafting manual will help you. I took my first drafting class in high school, learning on paper with t-squares and triangles, and up until about 5 years ago that textbook lived on my book shelf right above my desk. The only reason it's not there now is because of a broken sprinkler in the ceiling at a past employer. Soaked everything, and that poor old book disintegrated on me.

I am not familiar with the Penn Foster courses, but I know they are a pretty good school. You will do well with them. I'm being an old codger here, but I think any AutoCAD course should have a section at the beginning on basic drafting. There are a few folks who will already know that stuff, but there are many who don't even realize that they need it. They are two distinct skill sets. You can be the finest drafter in the world and not know a thing about AutoCAD. By the same token, you can know AutoCAD inside out and not know a thing about drafting.

Firligic
31st Dec 2010, 03:10 am
hey guys can you guys teach me how to draw a rebar in the bottom of the footings #6 rebar @ 8" O.C both ways

25494

and on page 12 it ask me to draw the steel plate and the I-beam being weld. how do i create the weld symbol
thanks

qball
4th Jan 2011, 11:13 pm
Each way: one way you will see the side of the bar (single line, or polyline with or without thickness), the other you will see the round end of the bar (use a circle or a donut). The actual diameter of the bar may or may not be required to scale. I just use the same donut for 10m, 15m, 20m, whatever just so it plots ok. Unless there's some reason the accuracy is required.
Some of the terminology and questions can be cleared with Google Image searches, such as "footing keyway" and "weld symbols".
It's like a construction site on your desktop!

Firligic
5th Jan 2011, 03:11 am
yup yup i see what you mean thanks qball

ericjwied
6th Dec 2011, 01:51 am
Can someone who actually did the structural drawing thru Penn Foster help me out. Im tryin to figure out how exactly this is supposed to be organized. I started out by drawing (Plate 1) in Model space at full scale. I am trying to stumble thru the sheet set version of this thing. Is that how it's supposed to be created? Also, when I do get on my 1st sheet, Im confused on how the dimensions and text should be scaled. Also, should everything including the balloons be created on Model space and text/dim on the layout? Then last. Though I have yet to get to that point, when Im done with the first plate, is a new model space attached to the sheet set for all remaining plates? Thanks for any help I can get.....

ReMark
6th Dec 2011, 11:52 am
Penn-Foster now asks for a sheet-set version of the structural package? Can you post the PDF?

Re: Text and dimensions. Are you told, in the instructions, to use annotative scaling for these drawing elements?

ericjwied
6th Dec 2011, 05:12 pm
No, thats the problem.... They dont say squat bout what they want.... Thats why Im tryin to figure out how to set this up. All it says in the instryctions is things that refer to "sheets". Like section A will be located on sheet 1 and the drawing on sheet 3 Sec B will be drawn on sheet 4..... So Im figuring thats what they are looking for. It dont say much bout text and dimension so I figure annotative is fine.

What a different world from SDRC/IDEAS.

ReMark
6th Dec 2011, 05:15 pm
No one I know who has done this project has used sheet sets.

From what I can tell from reviewing drawings done by past students is that every student, thus far, elected to do everything (geometry, text, dimensions and call-out bubbles) in model space. I haven't seen one person even use a layout. You're the first to even mention it (as well as sheet sets and annotative scaling). What are you doing taking this course? Seems you are already well ahead of everyone else.

Mike_Taylor
6th Dec 2011, 08:35 pm
I agree with Remark, unless your simply taking to become familiar with structural standards.

I remeber my first year of school we had Engineering Drawing 1 (AutoCAD basics). I had asked our prof if he wanted everything done in model space or papaerspace or a combination. He simply looked at me quizicaly and said. "No, what you think best." (He had immigrated from China only 3 years earlier).

You should have seen him playing with some of the dynamic blocks I made.

I now realize the way I typed that made me sound like I graduated college 15 years ago, when in reality im still going lol.

warpath37
28th Feb 2012, 02:50 am
i'm working on the same project and i'm having trouble in the same area here. for some reason the screencast URL wont work anymore. any help nestly? thanks!

nestly
28th Feb 2012, 06:20 am
I don't know what happened to my 2nd video, but I re-uploaded another one in post #12. The video is not intended to be taken literally, only to demonstrate the general arrangement of the columns, beams, girders, and channels as described in the project booklet.

warpath37
29th Feb 2012, 01:14 am
thats a pretty cool look at 3d part of AutoCAD. i understand what its meant to look like, just dont know exactly how they want me to draw the 4x4x6 pieces of angle. i will play around with it some more and hopefully post a look at my drawing soon. Thanks for re-uploading your video.

warpath37
29th Feb 2012, 04:07 am
don't know how to show (or how Penn Foster wants me to show) the bolting of the girder and channel beam.

ReMark
29th Feb 2012, 12:14 pm
Are you attempting to draw Plate 1? I thought that all one had to do for the channels that span between the columns was to indicate the centerline?

I noticed that you did not create a block for each of your column profiles.

Where is the baseplate for the column that sits upon a pier/footing?

ReMark
29th Feb 2012, 12:34 pm
33378
A quick mockup showing what a 4x4x6 angle "clip" (red) might look like in relation to a column (green) and a channel (yellow).
The clip would be bolted to the web of both the column and the channel.
Yes, I know I did not show the bolt holes. That wasn't the purpose of the detail.

nestly
29th Feb 2012, 01:24 pm
I'm not familiar with Penn/Foster, but the project booklet does seem to be a bit lacking. There seems to be a tenancy for students to orient the girders and channels vertically rather than horizontally. The channel to girder connection is specified, but not the column to girder connection(s), nor the orientation of the channels. The column baseplate is also ambiguous, the location of the anchor bolt hole seems confusing, and while anchor bolt size is specified, the bolt hole diameter is not. Maybe those things are covered elsewhere, but I'm not sure how someone can draw girders without knowing how they're connected, or how to draw the holes in the baseplate without knowing the hole diameter?

http://www.screencast.com/t/GyypCi9UvDRl

ReMark
29th Feb 2012, 01:31 pm
I couldn't agree more and this lack of attention to detail is evident throughout all the sections of the course. Just one more reason why I don't hold P-F in very high regard.

Now, they could argue they are teaching AutoCAD technique and content doesn't really matter but I would counter "do it right or don't do it at all".

lulumara
28th Mar 2012, 12:22 am
I attached a pdf file, just check if my work is ok with a small detail of channel and wide flange. Let me know if it is correct.

ReMark
28th Mar 2012, 11:08 am
Do your instructions call for the channel to sit on top of the beams or to run between the beams?

ReMark
28th Mar 2012, 11:56 am
33897
I believe this is how the connection should be made. The steel decking that supports the poured in place concrete would sit atop the channel.

nestly
28th Mar 2012, 12:13 pm
^ Like that, except I think the instructions say the C9 is below center and rests on the W12 flange...

ReMark
28th Mar 2012, 12:17 pm
That's easily fixed. Thank you nestly.
33898
Revised version.

lulumara
28th Mar 2012, 04:50 pm
Ok it's below the wide flange not on top.

lulumara
28th Mar 2012, 05:03 pm
Here's the revised drawing.

ReMark
28th Mar 2012, 05:14 pm
That looks right to me. You should be all set to move on to the next phase.