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  1. #1
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    Exclamation Revit production results - or the lack thereof

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    First I'll say that currently this is stemming from an HVAC drafter/ designer that just wants to put out some quality drawings in an efficient amount of time with not a lot of hassle - kind of like in AutoCAD. This is also coming from 20+ years CAD experience here so I am not talking out of my arse. From AutoLISP programming to Revit I am a drafter/ designer.

    Thus far my findings are that Revit is a horrible drafting tool (or plotting tool) IMO. From poor representation of symbology to the far too involved annotation tools it is not worth a penny in the long run. It may have some nice features but if our clients didn't require a RVT model we'd NEVER use it.

    After using Revit for several years now it still does not impress me. The many steps required to accomplish a simple task (especially regarding display) are simply not worth the time spent especially given the final result.

    Not too long ago there was an article/ blog about how the production side of generating a 3D model for use in Revit is far more desirable a task to complete inside of AutoCAD MEP so drafting issues/ headaches are minimized & workflow is maximized. The article focused on keeping your efforts outside of the Revit platform for production & ONLY using a RVT file for submittal of your required 3D model at time of turn in.

    Hopefully there are others doing this already that could assist in reviewing the process here so that others, like myself, can start to be more productive in this unfortunate software program that is currently being shoved down the throat of the industry that we work in.

    Thanks in advance... I hope.

    Note:
    Currently using Revit MEP 14 & 15 as well as AutoCAD MEP 14. Learned CAD on v12 DOS a looooong time ago (ITT Tech) & self taught Revit over the past 5 years.

  2. #2
    Luminous Being RobDraw's Avatar
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    Are you trying to start one of those thread wars? You would get more positive responses by posting in an AutoCAD forum.

    That being said, it's not that hard to use Revit as a drafting/design platform. The tools are there. It is not an easy transition from AutoCAD, but it is very doable.
    Drafting is a breeze.

  3. #3
    Luminous Being tzframpton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erratic View Post
    First I'll say that currently this is stemming from an HVAC drafter/ designer that just wants to put out some quality drawings in an efficient amount of time with not a lot of hassle - kind of like in AutoCAD.
    If you want to do this, you have to get better at Revit.

    Quote Originally Posted by erratic View Post
    Thus far my findings are that Revit is a horrible drafting tool (or plotting tool) IMO.
    I'll disagree with this. Side by side, Revit is far, far superior for creating MEP models. I've spent many years perfecting the Revit platform though.

    Quote Originally Posted by erratic View Post
    From poor representation of symbology to the far too involved annotation tools it is not worth a penny in the long run.
    I'll side with you in regards to the schematic symbols, only because what you're seeing is what came out of the box. Revit gives you the basics, but they are far from being considered standard. When people finally realize this, and create their own content, then and only then is when Revit's symbols start looking very good. As for the annotations, they're worth EVERY penny if you know how to use them correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by erratic View Post
    After using Revit for several years now it still does not impress me. The many steps required to accomplish a simple task (especially regarding display) are simply not worth the time spent especially given the final result.
    Sounds like you never really got out of first gear. My final results, in my opinion, are spectacularly better than anything AutoCAD outputted. You just have to understand how to represent the objects correctly is all.

    Quote Originally Posted by erratic View Post
    Not too long ago there was an article/ blog about how the production side of generating a 3D model for use in Revit is far more desirable a task to complete inside of AutoCAD MEP so drafting issues/ headaches are minimized & workflow is maximized. The article focused on keeping your efforts outside of the Revit platform for production & ONLY using a RVT file for submittal of your required 3D model at time of turn in.
    Hmm, I'll 100% disagree with that article. In fact, that author is sending people down the wrong path. Revit isn't "just" about "drawings" or "models", but schedules. Back in my contractor days, our superintendents loved it when I handed them an 8.5x11 sheet of paper with quantified BOM in tabulated form. It beats the hell out of having to manually take it off like the "good 'ol days". Saves hours, and is dead-nuts accurate.

    Not only that, but you gain leveraging the structural and architectural visibility capabilities as well. I mean, "insta-sections" is the greatest thing for field guys. They absolutely eat that stuff up, and it's nice to be able to tag the beams, or tag the columns, or dimension the joists that really lays out the job for them, piece by piece. The power is virtually unlimited. That author couldn't be any further from the truth on that one.

    Quote Originally Posted by erratic View Post
    Hopefully there are others doing this already that could assist in reviewing the process here so that others, like myself, can start to be more productive in this unfortunate software program that is currently being shoved down the throat of the industry that we work in.

    Thanks in advance... I hope.
    You just have to get involved with a Revit MEP community. I don't know if you have or not, but in case you haven't, jump over to RevitForum.org and drill the MEP guys. I mean, if there's something you feel like Revit sucks out, vent about it over there. These guys will agree with you most of the time, BUT they will offer their solutions. As Rob already mentioned, it's all about "mindset" with Revit. You MUST forfeit all that you know and love about AutoCAD before Revit will begin to shine. It's absolutely imperative.

    Here's an example of a preliminary mechanical room layout I did last year. This example was about 40% complete, just to get the field guys "going". This is all 100% Revit, all parametric, all tags and virtually ZERO "dumb text" (except for the red notes). I'll try and round up an HVAC example that has complete BOM listing as well..... maybe this can shed some light in Revit's power that you've been missing out on all along:
    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...NG-EXAMPLE.pdf

    Go through each page, looking at each sections (which were created in a snap, BTW), and then look at the last page for the 3D view. I cannot tell you how unbelievably fast I knocked this out. AutoCAD? Pfft, spare me. AutoCAD MEP? Okay, it can do most of what I've done, but #1 no where NEAR in the same amount of time, #2 no where NEAR as accurate visually, and #3 no where NEAR as capable in an overall perspective of "actual" time to set up and produce PDF's.

    -TZ
    Tannar Z. Frampton ™ | Frampton & Associates, Inc.

  4. #4
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    RD - Don't care for your approach so thats it.
    TZ - Appreciate the detailed & cordial response BUT disagree with you somewhat.

    1. I do not need the "Forget all you know about CAD speech" - I know that. I am fully aware of the capabilities of the software but its overkill. Not necessary & a waste of my time.

    2. Sorry, but I don't really care about take-offs. Its not my problem. We are not being paid anything extra in our office to save anyone money on the back side so why should I help some guy on the job site who is just going to go with a cheap selection anyway? Not to mention the scheduling tools in Revit are so cumbersome & time consuming I can create an entire sheet of them in CAD while you do one in Revit. Again, not worth my time.

    3. No problem here using the modeling tools within the software - that's the easy part. But when it comes to me being forced to place pipes so close together that when plotting the drop symbols cover each other Revit sucks ass. Also, when I am designing a multi story building & have to fight the view range for vent piping/ waste piping in adjacent floors its very time consuming since they fight each other for "visible" space.

    4. I'll give you the love for the section tools & the ability to quickly generate tagged notes, but I have LISP routines that do all of that & we rarely include section on our drawings. If anything we use them just to see if something is "going to fit".

    5. That is a whole other topic too - it makes no sense to have a mechanical firm such as ours coordinate ductwork, mech piping, domestic water, waste/ vent, roof drains, etc when none of those get installed together in the field. I have to orchestrate a fine mess of spaghetti to get a 6 story 60,000 sq ft building to not clash against itself or the structure. In the real world those guys don't follow the plans close enough to account for all that I have to. Buildings are so crammed & limited on space that it takes weeks to "clear" a design of problems yet those guys do not work together on site in such a fashion. This direction of the industry makes me want to open up a quickie mart & move on.

    6. I hope you guys don't take any of this personal as it is not meant that way. This all stems from frustration & likely the fact that I am the only Revit user in an office with AutoCAD LT for the engineers & only one other remotely capable drafter. I know I am working harder in Revit than I probably should be but our entire office is not going to go to Revit especially since I am the youngest at 40 & none of the engineers want to learn new software/ the boss doesn't want to spend the cash to make it happen.

    I'll stop there since it already seems/ feels like I am venting a little - I'm not meaning to. I really think this a better place than a CAD forum to discuss this since this is a Revit issue to me. Not to mention not all CAD users know Revit just as not all Revit users know CAD. I am looking for the hybrid similar to myself so I can get more production out of Revit in the future since it doesn't seem to be going away anytime soon.

    TZ - I appreciate the links/ info on where else to bounce my thoughts around & do hope that more clarity is just over the horizon because Revit is a handy tool but so far I can create a much much much more quality product from a DWG file than from a RVT file.

    ~Thanks for entertaining my CFM's
    Last edited by erratic; 16th Jun 2015 at 11:42 pm. Reason: grammar

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by erratic View Post
    RD - Don't care for your approach so thats it.
    Okay, but a lot of what you said sounded like a beech session. I've heard the exact same complaints so many times it makes my head spin. I did not know that you were a lone user. That has got to be extremely difficult. I've been fortunate enough to get more than enough training to keep me going strong and a lot of the projects I've done in Revit, the model was not handed over.

    I don't know about you but when I started AutoCAD, plotting was one of the hardest things to get my head around and, until recent years, annotation, done right, took some finesse. Once I figured it out, I found Revit made those a lot easier. When I started using Revit 2010, we were still doing strictly 2D production work on AutoCAD 2002. That was quite a steep learning curve for me, but I liked every minute of it.

    I am sorry if I offended you. Your 2nd post, unlike the first, looks like you are receptive to some words of wisdom, so I am sharing some of my experience making the transition.

    As far as I am concerned, both Revit and AutoCAD OOTB suck. They both require a lot of set-up to get your drawings looking the way you want them to. Well thought out templates are key for both plotting and display purposes and take a lot of time setting them up when you are figuring it out as you go. Making the transition is a steep learning curve. When I started, I was doing hybrid projects, plotting sheets from both Revit and AutoCAD, and was able to get both the platforms to put out sheets that looked very similar as far as standards go. It is very doable. If your drawings are schematic in nature and do not have to be BIM, don't overdue the coordination. The company I work for is choosing to do utilize Revit, even if when it is not required. We NEED to build up experience.

    HTH, once again, I did not mean to offend as I did not realize the difficult position you were in.
    Drafting is a breeze.

  6. #6
    Luminous Being RobDraw's Avatar
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    I saw your post on Revit Forum and found it funny that the first response was very similar to mine even with the additional information.
    Drafting is a breeze.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by erratic View Post
    I'll stop there since it already seems/ feels like I am venting a little - I'm not meaning to. I really think this a better place than a CAD forum to discuss this since this is a Revit issue to me.
    Venting "a little"? Not meaning to? I hardly believe that after seeing your post at RFO, especially the condescending remark towards anybody who's a Revit programmer.

    From all of your responses above, I noticed two things: #1 by your own admission you do not want to work in a 3D environment. You only want to produce 2D schematic drawings in a plan view without any obligation to even a minimal effort of coordination for the contractors - period. #2 by your own admission, you're "fighting" Revit's tools, some of which are the easiest and most harmonious tools anybody could have asked for in a 3D environment.

    What I would say to you is to not blame Revit, but blame yourself. Nobody else seems to have a problem with Revit that actually use it in the manner it was intended, which you are clearly not (again, by your own admission). My suggestion to you at this point is to go back to AutoCAD since you're much more productive with it for the type of outputs you and your company produces.

    -TZ
    Tannar Z. Frampton ™ | Frampton & Associates, Inc.

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    My suggestion would be to seek out some training at your local AutoDesk reseller where you can ask questions, discover tips and tricks, and make valuable contacts with other Revit users who can, over the long term, be your support network. It would probably be in your best interest, as well as the company's, and possibly lower your frustration level while at the same time keeping you from beating your head against the wall. Just a suggestion from a non-Revit user.
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    I'm now a full member of the Society for the Promotion of Mediocrity in CAD. Standards? We don't need no stinkin' standards! Take whatever advice I offer and do the opposite.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReMark View Post
    My suggestion would be to seek out some training at your local AutoDesk reseller where you can ask questions, discover tips and tricks, and make valuable contacts with other Revit users who can, over the long term, be your support network. It would probably be in your best interest, as well as the company's, and possibly lower your frustration level while at the same time keeping you from beating your head against the wall. Just a suggestion from a non-Revit user.
    ReMark,
    That is probably the nicest comment I've received (and I'm fine with that) but AutoDesk sellers don't know how to use the software how we need to use it. none of our engineers are ever going to use/ trust its sizing tools & that is where Adesk wants to start. Not worth the time. Not to mention I seriously hate my job these days so I have no interest in a support network. I want out. All I was trying to do here was to find a useful workaround given my situation but all I am getting (mostly) is "your doing it wrong" & "go back to school" - all I have to say to that is HELL NO!

    Anyway, thanks again & good luck to all. I can't wait to retire... early if I must/ can.

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