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GE13579

Should forum members be able to buy and sell services?  

71 members have voted

  1. 1. Should forum members be able to buy and sell services?

    • Under no circumstances
      42
    • It could work if handled properly
      20
    • There should be no restriction
      9


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  • GE13579

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Hmmmm, I wasn't aware of that. I'm guessing that may be a mistake? I know that David added a Paypal button underneath his avatar, if you check one of his posts you'll see it, but it's possible that he doesn't know that everyone else now has that option also. I think if he wanted us to have that option, he would have posted a message telling us about it.

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The Buzzard
I've just noticed the PayPal button availability in the User CP profile area. I would like to open a debate as to whether this option is really suited to the site, or whether it is more likely to upset visitors who are happy to give their time freely to contribute to the site. Over time, will this lead to the demise of CADTutor? This site is tagged "The best free help for AutoCAD on the web", what kind of message are we conveying with this?

 

An unnecessary update in my opinion.

 

Let battle commence... :)

 

GE,

I still think this is and will always be the best free help site. I have noticed the PayPal button as well. The people who are using this button still offer free help. I feel that in order to be worthy of free help, a person must show that they have tried to do something on their own and had no success overcoming their problem. There are many who come to this site looking for the easy way out. They want things done for them their way only taking advantage of the person who is trying to help them. For those folks there is PayPal. I see nothing wrong with this at all. I post complete free programs for those who want to learn by example. In most cases the program will not be suitable to their use and would need to be changed. I will help that person change it if they are willing to make some effort. There are many ways to get help as well as many ways to learn here. Nobody is twisting anyones arm to push that button. The choices are very simple.

 

1. You can show effort to learn and receive free help.

2. You can do a site search for what you are looking for.

3. If the above does not apply, Hit PayPal.

 

What a variety!

 

Its all good.

The Buzzard

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Which people, other than Cadtutor, are using this option? :unsure:

 

As I said before, I think this is a mistake and that option is probably not supposed to be available. No one here should be charging for their assistance. We are all here because we want to be here, to selflessly help others, not to make money. If you want to charge people for your help then you should start up your own website.

 

I'm sure David will be along shortly to sort this all out. :wink:

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stevsmith

To buzzard.

Along with yourself and Lee, you guys are up there as 2 major contributers for lisp programing.

I love the way that you write your programing code. you try and simplify the code as ,much as you can and then give a paragraph explaining what the string or command does. somtimes i feel that people abuse you and lee's (not to mention alot of other lisp programesrs) time. And for what? Not even a simple thank you. Then a couple of days later they come back looking for minor changes. In the real world, you would charge for it.

This is where the paypal donation may come in handy.

"You want the code changed??"

"where was my thank you from the last time I helped you?"

"here mate, click here"

Paypal....

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CADTutor

Good debate guys. My apologies for not introducing this new feature and perhaps running it by the community first.

 

stevesmith really put his finger on it. This was a request from Lee Mac who wanted a mechanism for forum members who were willing to pay for bespoke LISP routines to pay him for them. Of course, this being an egalitarian forum, other members were given the same option.

 

I do understand your concerns and perhaps I haven't thought this through well enough. It was never intended to imply a "pay for help" ethos but The Buzzard makes some valid points in his post.

 

When I implemented this feature I just saw it as a PayPal button and didn't really consider the implications. However, I this debate is very good and one we should have.

 

Potentially, CADTutor could be a marketplace where people who are prepared to pay for bespoke services come to find those who can provide those services. This could raise the profile of the site but is it what we want? Should commercial activity only take place on a sister site, keeping CADTutor completely free, open and non-commercial?

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The Buzzard
To buzzard.

Along with yourself and Lee, you guys are up there as 2 major contributers for lisp programing.

I love the way that you write your programing code. you try and simplify the code as ,much as you can and then give a paragraph explaining what the string or command does. somtimes i feel that people abuse you and lee's (not to mention alot of other lisp programesrs) time. And for what? Not even a simple thank you. Then a couple of days later they come back looking for minor changes. In the real world, you would charge for it.

This is where the paypal donation may come in handy.

"You want the code changed??"

"where was my thank you from the last time I helped you?"

"here mate, click here"

Paypal....

 

Thank You Steve,

 

I do it free because I am diabled. I enjoy having something to do. I will not speak for Lee, But I know he most likely enjoys it as well. One of the things I think we can agree on is Lee gets taken advantage of many time over. The same people who he has done code for come back with more requests or new codes to be written and no code posted by the person looking for the help to show any progress in the learning.

Come on, All these code start with defun . There is a starting point. Try and take it a bit further. Seems to me also these same people will always use the same lines, "I want to learn" "Lisp is a bit beyond me" and the list goes on. I am in no way in Lee's league, But I do the best from what I have learned here and pass it on. I think the time has come to wake some of these people up from their TAKE, TAKE, TAKE fantasy. I know for a fact Lee still and alway helps people who show some desire to learn. When coding gets to the point that it can turn into a major project, Then I think it fair to get some return for the time involved.

 

Upto this point I have not seen but a few of these PayPal buttons. I feel its just another option on the table for those who want codes their way without putting in the effort. You will not get the kind of quality help like this anywhere else.

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stevsmith

Maybe if we had a section for commercial members who offer services, and these services are kept away from the forums in a completely different section.

but the comercail members must have over 500 posts in order to gain this privelage. And not to increase the workload of the moderators, but a review of previous posts for acceptance into this new section.

Just an idea.

 

oh. then David can charge a % for advertising space for these services.

Then this in turn would also fund CadTutor.

 

Or am I just rambling on a load of old cod's wollop

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David Bethel

Or possibly if someones asks how to reimburse ( or donate to ) someone for their time and effort, the author could direct them to their public profile, where their PayPal link can be accessed.

 

That way it is not displayed ( or advertised ) in the post but still accessible. My $0.02. -David

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The Buzzard
Or possibly if someones asks how to reimburse ( or donate to ) someone for their time and effort, the author could direct them to their public profile, where their PayPal link can be accessed.

 

That way it is not displayed ( or advertised ) in the post but still accessible. My $0.02. -David

 

I like that idea David.

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stevsmith

but then you would have legal implications as to who actually owns the product.

the Author with copyrite, or the buyer who has purchased the product. mmmmm

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The Buzzard
but then you would have legal implications as to who actually owns the product.

the Author with copyrite, or the buyer who has purchased the product. mmmmm

 

I think that can all be worked out between the buyer & seller.

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Ok, so I'm a bit dubious about posting anything in this thread at the moment... I've just read the whole thread and it seems that I great deal of you are completely against the idea.

 

This was not intended to deter members from the site, and members have no obligation to pay for the help they receive, but they option is there all the same. I think Buzzard hit the nail on the head.

 

Sorry if I have caused a uproar over this,

 

Lee

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As another question to throw into the ring - IF any member does ever get paid as a result of doing something for someone else and first contact was made between the 2 parties; would CADTutor be owed a kind of finders fee?

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The Buzzard

I think its important to view the whole picture as to why CADTutor is as successful as its become, And please excuse me if I use the AutoLISP, VBA, the CUI & Customisation as an example, But its a very good example I as far as I can see.

 

In the web page header it says:

CADTutor, The best free help for AutoCAD on the web.

 

Just think about how this can be possible. When people come to this site I would think it all about learning something that is so new to us in AutoCAD. When the questions are posted and we show our best attempt at the problem, Some individual will come along and guide us thru it by showing an example or offering comments on how to go about the fix. Sometimes this can take several posts before the light bulb go off in our heads and once this happens there is some self-saticfaction from the thought that we got the pictiure. This is the key to wanting to know more. I believe this produces a revolving door of future teachers for this site. This is what keeps CADTutor the kind of site it has become.

 

Now lets just change some wording around in the header.

 

CADTutor, The best freeloading for AutoCAD on the web.

 

I for one do not like the way that sounds.

 

You can come here and get what you need to your exact specification as many times as you like. Once you are done you no longer need to have anything to do with this site. Granted nobody is under any obligation to.

 

The amazing thing to about learning some special things here give me a great sence of purpose. If I own a bussiness or work for one, My productivity has increased eventually leading to more money. It would be disappointing to some people for what ever reason they may have for not wanting to learn, But now we have a new option to help us get what we need without the learning hassles. It can work well for some. For those who are not willing to learn or pay the price, You do not add any value to this site to start with, So who really needs you anyway.

 

I know it sounds cold, But I see this hurting the site as a reality. Freeloaders take up valuable time from others who have the desire to learn.

 

Look at this from any angle you like. Its not far from the truth.

 

I am proud to say that my abilities as a good lisp programmer were the result of my willingness to learn and the time and patience of my CADTutor.

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Just read through the whole thread here, and I have a few things that I would like to add.

 

First, The Buzzards post about Lee being used. That is for Lee to decide, and mate, I have said this before - you need to learn to say No, say it loud and mean it.

 

Second, my opinion is that the PayPal button is a DONATION. It is not a buy/sell-service, in my view it is meant to be used as a thank-you for a job well done. Advertising ones services and charging for it is not something that I want to see on this site.

 

Third, about lurking, freeloading and whatnot - there is nothing, absolutely nothing that stops any of you from not responding to a question. If you think the OP is out of line, then don't answer. Simple.

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CADTutor

In order to better gauge opinion I've added a poll to this thread. It is an important debate and I take the opinion of the community very seriously.

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I’ve cast a vote for It could work if handled properly though am willing to admit that “if handled properly” could be a tougher than it sounds.

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My personal opinion on this is that those who are willing to add the Paypal button to their profile; should first of all remove it, and then they should have a separate section of the Forums whereby they post what their expertise is, and the going rate for their paid services.

This would then keep the vast majority of this wonderful site free for use for all.

However, I fear at some point in the future it could create a two tier system; of those willing to pay, and those not.

One of the main principles of this site (probably been said before) is that people come here looking for help to develop solutions to CAD issues they have. Once they have learned a reasonable amount, most people stick around and then help others - it's a self fulfilling prophecy.

If there is an option to pay for someone's service, would that mean that the particular service solution would not be open for others to see and learn from ?

That would be the biggest threat to the future of CADTutor as we know it today.

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