Autodesk loses court battle - Selling your licence

[Teeds]

I just found the thread and I must be affected by the same Texas heat as our esteemed colleague from Dallas.

 

The problem with all EULAs is the fact that none of them are contracts that anyone takes the time to read before purchasing and installing any software.

 

This thread is focusing on AutoDesk products, but this is not limited to just our CAD products, all the products on my computer ... AutoCAD 2009, ArcGIS, Adobe CS3, Windows for that matter ... all of then seem to take the same direction with their software.

 

This is what comes up when I tried to track down the EULA for Acrobat 8 Professional ...

 

Copyright 1984-2007 Adobe Systems Incorporated and its licensors. All rights reserved.

 

Protected by U.S. Patents 4,837,613; 5,050,103; 5,185,818; 5,200,740; 5,233,336; 5,237,313; 5,255,357; 5,546,528; 5,625,711; 5,634,064; 5,729,637; 5,737,599; 5,754,873; 5,781,785; 5,819,301; 5,832,530; 5,832,531; 5,835,634; 5,860,074; 5,929,866; 5,930,813; 5,943,063; 5,995,086; 5,999,649; 6,028,583; 6,049,339; 6,073,148; 6,185,684; 6,205,549; 6,275,587; 6,289,364; 6,324,555; 6,385,350; 6,408,092; 6,415,278; 6,421,460; 6,466,210; 6,507,848; 6,515,675; 6,563,502; 6,604,105; 6,639,593; 6,701,023; 6,711,557; 6,720,977; 6,748,111; 6,754,382; 6,771,816; 6,842,786; 6,857,105; 6,894,704; 6,914,602; 6,915,484; 6,934,909; 7,002,597; 7,006,107; 7,089,248; D337,604; D338,907; D371,799; D454,582; Patents Pending in the U.S. and other countries.

 

Also protected by U.S. Patents 6,170,058; 6,263,446; 6,956,950.

 

Adobe, the Adobe logo, Acrobat, the Adobe PDF logo, Distiller and Reader are either registered trademarks or trademarks of Adobe Systems Incorporated in the United States and/or other countries.

 

 

Notices, Terms and Conditions pertaining to third party software are located at http://www.adobe.com/go/thirdparty.

 

e_Db is a licensed Product from Simple Software Solutions, Inc.

____________________________________________________________________

Portions utilize Microsoft Windows Media Technologies. Copyright © 1999-2007 Microsoft Corporation. All Rights Reserved. ____________________________________________________________________

Portions include technology used under license from Autonomy, and are copyrighted.

____________________________________________________________________

Combined PostScript Drivers are a result of a cooperative development process by Adobe and Microsoft.

____________________________________________________________________

Copyright 1993-2007 Lextek International

____________________________________________________________________

Portions are the result of a cooperative development process by Adobe Systems Incorporated and Microsoft Corporation.

____________________________________________________________________

MPEG Layer-3 audio compression technology licensed by Fraunhofer IIS and THOMSON multimedia.

____________________________________________________________________

Contains Padus Foundation Class software © Padus, Incorporated.

____________________________________________________________________

Size optimization of Adobe Acrobat and Adobe Reader performed using NOS technology licensed from NOS Microsystems Limited, 7-12 Tavistock Square, London, WC1H 9BQ United Kingdom. All rights reserved.

____________________________________________________________________

Portions copyright Right Hemisphere, Inc.

____________________________________________________________________

OCR technology by Image Recognition Integrated Systems S.A. Copyright 1987 - 2007, I.R.I.S. S.A. All rights reserved.

____________________________________________________________________

©Copyright 1989-2007 All Rights Reserved Proximity Technology A Division of Franklin Electronic Publishers, Inc. Burlington, New Jersey USA

 

Tracking all the agreements between all the companies listed would consume more than a few hours.

 

Bentley was mentioned. Do you "own" their software, or "lease" it? I don't know and I am just wondering.

 

Lastly ... I have a 2 copy license myself and I agree there should be a way for license "owners" to sell the "licenses" that they own, when they are no longer of use or need by the owner.

[NoelStalker]

OK, so now that it is legal, where can I get a cheap, legal used copy?

[ReMark]

Noel: What particular software are you looking for? Plain AutoCAD or one of the vertical products?

[ReMark]

I would suggest looking on craigslist. I checked in my home state (CT; city: Hartford) and there were a couple of versions (2008 and 2009) offered over the last month. The prices were pretty good so chances are they were snapped up in a hurry.

[NoelStalker]

Remark,

thanks for the tip. I am looking for AutoCAD 2005 for mechanical application

[Evott]

I recently purchased AutoCad used on ebay. It is a real version and has all the information with it. I never saw a license agreement before purchasing it nor do any of the other thousands of people buying the software.(Not even buying it new) Yes it's not in our name on Autodesks files, but we all have proof that we purchased it legally with no agreements or anything before hand assuming that we own it if we bought it. Are we ok to use the software legally?

 

I actually called Autodesk and asked them what I needed to do to transfer it to my name. I even gave them my information. They did not want to unless I had consent from the original owner and they had to fill out a document also. Well that is not going to happen becuase the seller said the company went out of business. Who really cares about registering it in your name anyway? They said that I would need to destroy the CD or get my money back and hassle with ebay.

 

Destroy the CD? Seems like Autocad is something I bought and hold in my hands. I didn't buy a license, I bought the actual CD's with the software on it, just like people buying it new from a store or reseller.

 

I don't really care about upgrading it for a cheaper price and I don't care about the special support. Autodesk sells Autocad for thousands of dollars which is insane in the first place, the buyer should have the right to resell it or do whatever they want with it. They made their money on the first sale, just like everything else bought new in the world.

 

So after all this I searched for information hours on end. Which leads back to my question in my first paragraph.

[tzframpton]

Autodesk sells Autocad for thousands of dollars which is insane in the first place, the buyer should have the right to resell it or do whatever they want with it.

Using Autodesk products are not a right, its a privilege. How can a buyer automatically have a "right" to something that they didn't have anything to do over the development process? How can a buyer have a "right" to tell any company what they think their product is worth? They don't, and they can't.

 

Granted, I agree with you that AutoCAD is extremely overpriced. However I will not ever say that I have a right to make decisions over someone else's products, even if that "justifies" buying dated software at a discount. And back to your original question; no, I don't think that you can use that software legally. You do not "own" AutoCAD, you only "lease" it technically. It's in the EULA that you cannot resale this software to anyone, nor can you purchase it other than an authorized Autodesk reseller. But I doubt Autodesk will bust down the doors of your company next week with fully automatic weapons threatening you to uninstall it, either. haha

 

Not hounding ya, just setting the record straight. :wink:

[rkmcswain]

I recently purchased AutoCad used on ebay. It is a real version and has all the information with it. I never saw a license agreement before purchasing it nor do any of the other thousands of people buying the software.(Not even buying it new) Yes it's not in our name on Autodesks files, but we all have proof that we purchased it legally with no agreements or anything before hand assuming that we own it if we bought it. Are we ok to use the software legally?

It depends on your definition of "legally". Right now, I think your situation is still up to the courts. Will Autodesk send the BSA to your house tomorrow? Most likely not.

 

I think right now, as far as Autodesk is concerned, the original purchaser is still the license holder, and the license is non-transferable.

 

It's pretty difficult to compare tangible goods to software. Just because you are holding a physical CD means little.... Anyone with a few dollars can have a blank CD screen printed and then copy the digital data onto it - and voila - you have an "actual CD with the software on it" as you put it...

[skipsophrenic]

ok it's a huge price difference, but isn't reselling a computer

application the same as re-selling a game/video/dvd? even they're not

supposed to be re-sold and yet they do every day.

[dbroada]

goods aren't meant to be taken from a shop without payment but that happens every day too. Just because something is common doesn't make it legal.

 

We have FACT visit us on a regular basis checking the validity of our software. Would you think "cheap" software is still a bargin after you have lost a multi-million pound contract?

[ReMark]

I see no harm in trying to recoup part of your original investment of $3000+ dollars by selling your non-pirated copy of AutoCAD after you no longer need it. AutoDesk got paid the initial full price. If they are concerned about who has the software then require the seller to forward the buyer's name and address so it can be tracked.

[skipsophrenic]

i agree there re-mark, infact you've highlighted my point, when I was

on about the games/dvd's being sold on i should have been clearer, i

meant those that had beel legally paid for.

 

And like you stated in an earlier post a while back, he re-seller says

he's SELLING you the product right up untill End User's Lifetime

Agreement when lo-and behold it's a lease.

 

I think that maybe what should happen is change supplier name from

re-SELLER to re-LEASER to allow clarity for new customers.

[tzframpton]

i agree there re-mark, infact you've highlighted my point, when I was

on about the games/dvd's being sold on i should have been clearer, i

meant those that had beel legally paid for.

 

And like you stated in an earlier post a while back, he re-seller says

he's SELLING you the product right up untill End User's Lifetime

Agreement when lo-and behold it's a lease.

 

I think that maybe what should happen is change supplier name from

re-SELLER to re-LEASER to allow clarity for new customers.

LOL.... well there's a HUGE difference in reselling AutoCAD vs. reselling a "game" or a "dvd". The biggest difference, is that you make money using AutoCAD. You do not make money for a game, or DVD. It is simply for entertainment. This is why AutoCAD has a licensing agreement that it does, because it is a digital tool, not just a peice of entertainment for your viewing pleasure.

 

My company literally makes its millions each year from using Autodesk's software. A $5,000 purchase is just apart of the industry standard in Dallas/Ft. Worth area so we can provide our customer with what they want.

[rkmcswain]

I see no harm in trying to recoup part of your original investment of $3000+ dollars by selling your non-pirated copy of AutoCAD after you no longer need it. AutoDesk got paid the initial full price.

 

No flaming please... I'm not taking sides here... But Autodesk wants to sell a new license to each person in the world that needs one. If I purchase a license today and then you need a license next week, and I sell you mine - then Autodesk has only sold one (to me) instead of two (to me and you). I don't think they really care about whose name is tied to each license.

[rkmcswain]

well there's a HUGE difference in reselling AutoCAD vs. reselling a "game" or a "dvd". The biggest difference, is that you make money using AutoCAD. You do not make money for a game, or DVD. It is simply for entertainment. This is why AutoCAD has a licensing agreement that it does, because it is a digital tool, not just a peice of entertainment for your viewing pleasure.

I have to disagree with you on that...

 

As an example, both "Autodesk" and "EA sports" employ hundreds, if not thousands of people who all draw a paycheck. They both produce a product that can be duplicated without cost (or very little cost). Autodesk could not care less if you make money with AutoCAD or not - other than the fact that if you do make money, you will probably buy more software from them. The next version of AutoCAD is the same as the latest game from "EA Sports" or whatever...--> A product designed to offer something new over the last version...

 

Consider if you were a full time, one man programmer who developed a great software application. It doesn't matter if it's a drafting program or a game or whatever... Say it took you 2000 hours (1 year) to make, test, and market the application. You need to make $100,000 to cover the costs and provide yourself with a living. You sell one copy for $500 and then that buyer makes 200 copies and gives them away for free. Your total sales = $500 instead of $100,000

 

Now, could Autodesk sell AutoCAD for $1000 or $500 or could "EA Sports" sell NBA Live 2008 for $2 and each still make a good profit? Who knows? That is a different debate. But I don't think piracy can be justified by the differences in the product being pirated...

[skipsophrenic]

But I don't think piracy can be justified by the

differences in the product being pirated...

 

a good point and my appologies to everyone if I sounded like I was advocatin

for piracy - i wasn't.

 

The only versions i was refering to as "Re-Selling" were the original versions

person "A" bought with their own cash. no copies thank you

[rkmcswain]

The only versions i was refering to as "Re-Selling" were the original versions

person "A" bought with their own cash. no copies thank you

 

I think that is another reason that Autodesk (and others) are so strict about no reselling at all. Besides the fact that they lose new sales, by freely allowing resale of a license, the lines between what is legal and what is not start to blur. Say "Company A" that sells a few unused seats to "Company B", who in turn makes a "few extra copies" and gives them to "Company C", who does the same thing, etc., etc., and then next thing you know, it's out of hand.

[tzframpton]

But I don't think piracy can be justified by the differences in the product being pirated...

For the record I was not justifying pirating games or dvd's (and if I sounded like I was, my apologies).... But to me personally I do believe there's a difference in the reason of buying an Autodesk product vs. buying an entertainment product. I was only debating the comparison that skipso made (no pun intended).

 

However you did make a good example, mcswain. I definitely see your point.

 

Personally, if the entire market will bare the costs of an Autodesk product as their industry standard, then so be it - EULA, price, and all. To gripe and complain that someone else's product is "too overpriced" and "no reselling options is crap" is basically admitting that you are willing to surpress free economic markets. How would anyone like it if other people came to your company and told you that you had to drop your prices because they think it's too much, or change your contract to be able to resell because they think it's not fair.

 

To me, my summing up in the last statement is always a "case closed" conversation to anything along these topics. But, that's just the conservative in me.

[ReMark]

I think too many of you are basing your opinions on the premise that Joe User is going to go into the software piracy business thereby putting AutoDesk out of business. For the record: I do not advocate making/selling copies of any AutoDesk product. Period.

[MaxwellEdison]

I'll agree with you on that Styk, to a point. My problem though is that the alternatives are not readily available. Outside of Solidworks and Microstation I can't think of too many other competitors for them. I think one of the biggest reasons for this is Autodesk's "If you can't beat 'em, buy 'em" strategy.

 

Of course I still see some good things out of Autodesk, namely their student download area. This was a win/win as students can get comfortable on multiple types of software, giving companies a more complete toolset. And Autodesk insures that they will remain the standard as such a majority of the workforce is used to using their products.