tzframpton Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 I'll agree with you on that Styk, to a point. My problem though is that the alternatives are not readily available. Outside of Solidworks and Microstation I can't think of too many other competitors for them. So how is this in any way Autodesk's fault? Because of the fact there's not many other competitors, that doesn't give anybody a right to tell them what to put in their EULA or how much to price their product. That's basically my point in it all. Now think of it this way.... lets say the entire market FINALLY gets fed up with Autodesk, and start switching to a newer, better software. Well then Autodesk would be up sh*t creek without a paddle unless they rethink their price or software package to compete. Nobody forces anything on anyone, other than the force of what the "market" put in place by majority of each and every individual/company who participated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReMark Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 ...surpress free economic markets... Styk is one humorous dude. We, the users, are trying to suppress AutoDesk's free economic market buy reselling legit software when we no longer have any need for it. LOL I think it's the other way around. If AutoDesk is worried about it they can initiate a buy back program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzframpton Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 ...surpress free economic markets... Styk is one humorous dude. We, the users, are trying to suppress AutoDesk's free economic market buy reselling legit software when we no longer have any need for it. LOL I think it's the other way around. If AutoDesk is worried about it they can initiate a buy back program. Hey, I'm not gonna agree with their way of doing business... my point is only that it's THEIR business, THEIR product. Which basically means that we have no say so in it at all. I do not and will not tell any company how to run their own interests. :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReMark Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 Styk: You've never made a suggestion, good, bad or indifferent regarding the way your company conducts business? I find that difficult to believe. You're so outspoken here but you are a quiet little churchmouse at work? No, no, no; I don't believe it for a minute. Next you'll be telling me there is no Santa Claus! LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzframpton Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 Styk: You've never made a suggestion, good, bad or indifferent regarding the way your company conducts business? I find that difficult to believe. You're so outspoken here but you are a quiet little churchmouse at work? No, no, no; I don't believe it for a minute. Next you'll be telling me there is no Santa Claus! LOL Mark, I'll have my opinions on just about anything... sure. And for the record I do believe that Autodesk is a monopoly, and no I don't agree with their outrageous prices and "subscription" purchasing. Happy now Mark? Does my humble admittance gain you a warm fuzzy feeling inside my brotha from another mutha?? haha j/k :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxwellEdison Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 My point is that such product is unlikely to come along soon. And certainly would not present itself as a viable option overnight. Autodesk has been buying out small to medium sized companies before they become a threat. I think Solidworks opened their eyes on this front as their own parametric software offerings were relatively anemic when it came out (Mechanical Desktop anyone?). There is nothing inherently wrong in their strategy, in fact it is very savvy. It insulates them from the risk of the industry abandoning them, and enables them to keep unpopular business practices around. Basically, I don't hate the player, I'm just frustrated at the game. Even if it is the best game in town. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReMark Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 I'm a grumpy old man therefore I am never truely happy. And what's this about being twin sons of a different mother? I'll have you know I'm way more handsome in a Senatorial way. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReMark Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 Back on topic. How about a transfer of license fee? AutoDesk still makes some money and they also know who has their software. This would only be applicable to users selling their AutoDesk software because they are 1) going out of business, 2) changing to different (non-AutoDesk) software and 3) not as a result of upgrading to the latest version. In the last case, the user would have to return the previous version of the software within 30 days of receiving the upgrade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evott Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 Very good information guys! I was surprised to see so many posts today. R. Waddington takes a stand and Vernor vs. Autodesk are great examples of how Autodesks "rules or agreements" are not enough to envoke or outweigh the main laws and rights of consumers. I read the EULA that cadtutor posted and it was a lot different from the EULA that is on my old AutoCad CD. I see that AutoDesk is trying to perfect their EULA as the years go by. The EULA on my CD is pretty poor and really has no legal affliction. It states about a 15 day trial that ends, but it really doesn't end if I reinstall the program. It restarts with 15 days. I don't even have to put in the Authorization number. It doesn't say "which 15 days or anything about reinstalling". Even at the end of the EULA there is a statement that the agreement and license are terminated if you go bankrupt or go into liquidation. So baslically if the company went out of business or liquidated, the software agreement is no longer valid, and the program in questions is just a program to do what you wish. When I talked to autodesk opporators they did not want to say much about anything almost like they had something to hide. I see now ebay is selling hundreds of used Autocad products every week and they range from $50 to $2000 depending on how old, new and what versions. I even asked Autodesk about this and they pretty much had no comment other than the sellers wern't allowed to sell it. Ebay is pretty strict and is not stopping the selling or buying and now Autodesk isn't. It must be within the law becuase if would not be taking place if it wasn't. Thats just one place. There are many other places that sell new and used AutoCad that are not a authorized resellers you can find them all over the web. I'm talking about Genuine AutoCad software, not fake illegal copies. There is a big different between something Geniune and something pirated. I agree with stykFace that AutoCad is a tool that some use to make a profit or do business but over all that shouldn't matter. You use your truck to get to work, you use your OS to run your computer, thousands of things are tools to do business or personal use why should Autodesk be any different? Yes they have the right to protect their software, but their EULA seems to be overstepping our main rights as consumers. Taking advantage of customers is poor business. But we don't have to buy it right? In my opinion AutoCad is the best 2D software and I agree that Autodesk should charge more becuase of that, but not 20 times more. It seems greedy and its going to hurt them in the long run. If some company makes better 2D software their prices will come down for sure. Just a note I did see new Full AutoCad 2009 LT for $758 online. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReMark Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 It must have been a slow day in the office for this thread to resurface. We go at it like this every several months or so. The last discussion got a bit far afield and someone felt the need to step in and shut it down. But like a bad penny it tends to resurface ever again. I don't mind the bantering it generates. Most of us here respect the guy/gal on the other side of the table so for the most part it doesn't get close to becoming a shouting match or a verbal duel to the death. All in good fun and the spirit of debate. Works for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxwellEdison Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 It must have been a slow day in the office for this thread to resurface. We go at it like this every several months or so. The last discussion got a bit far afield and someone felt the need to step in and shut it down. But like a bad penny it tends to resurface ever again. I don't mind the bantering it generates. Most of us here respect the guy/gal on the other side of the table so for the most part it doesn't get close to becoming a shouting match or a verbal duel to the death. All in good fun and the spirit of debate. Works for me. To summarize, it has the same effect as discussing politics or religion. But fewer death threats as we're reasonable folk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzframpton Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 I agree with stykFace that AutoCad is a tool that some use to make a profit or do business but over all that shouldn't matter. You use your truck to get to work, you use your OS to run your computer, thousands of things are tools to do business or personal use why should Autodesk be any different? What do you mean "why should Autodesk be any different"? So Autodesk should be forced to do business how someone else sees right? Hmmm... a little socialist view isn't it? Last I checked the owner(s) of a company has every right to set their own guidelines for their own product. Yes they have the right to protect their software, but their EULA seems to be overstepping our main rights as consumers. Taking advantage of customers is poor business. But we don't have to buy it right? In my opinion AutoCad is the best 2D software and I agree that Autodesk should charge more becuase of that, but not 20 times more. It seems greedy and its going to hurt them in the long run. If some company makes better 2D software their prices will come down for sure. So, you have had absolutely no experience in the development process of AutoCAD, and you feel that as a "consumer" you have the right to tell them their software is too much even with no experience on how much money actually might go into the software as a whole. Have I summed it up pretty accurately? So, you're saying, that as a customer you have a right, not a privilege but a moral and justifiable right to actually tell another company what their prices should be?? I'm not flaming, I'm just raising some points is all. Don't think I'm hounding on ya or anything. :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evott Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 Yeah they have the right to put their own guidelines on anything they want, they just can't legally inforce it? Some people will obide some people won't. When it all comes down to it, they made extra profit from the guidelines. More power to them Gotta make money! Well thats why I said in my opinion about the price. But yes I have freedom of speech. They don't have to listen They can sell it for whatever they want Really the price is has nothing to do with the EULA, but when it all comes down to at the end of the month. Money is Money. It's very hard for a small business just starting or an individual to buy a new version of Autocad. They have pretty much borrow the money or have a very good capable credit card. When the price of software or license costs as much as a good used car you kinda have to stop and think. lol! Even the windows OS's are $100-300 and thats an entire operating system that runs everything on your computer. Way more years and money developing that then Autodesk has spent. I'm just venting all my facts and opinions, I like to discuss these kinds of issues. I'm layed back and welcome to all points Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzframpton Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 There are definitely cheaper options that does create a *.DWG file, however. For a small company that is the best option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustysilo Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 Don't even get me started on this whole thing again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Xenophon Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 what are the going prices for old copies like is this 2006 mechanical really only worth 50$ while this civil 2009 worth 4995$ ? and where do you buy bulk discounted boxes of old copies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzframpton Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 What's funny is if you're going to "buy" illegal software at a discount rate, why don't you just go download it off a torrent site or something for free instead like the rest of the people do?? That's what gets me. If you're going to do something illegal, do it all the way illegal and not half ass. haha *NOTE* I do not promote the use of downloading illegal software. :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReMark Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 Consumers influence pricing by buying or not buying a product. Look at the price for a barrel of oil and a gallon of gasoline. Under the current court ruling I believe that buying a "used" version of an AutoDesk program would not be considered illegal. A bit-torrent version however would be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Xenophon Posted December 25, 2008 Share Posted December 25, 2008 Consumers influence pricing by buying or not buying a product. Look at the price for a barrel of oil and a gallon of gasoline. Under the current court ruling I believe that buying a "used" version of an AutoDesk program would not be considered illegal. A bit-torrent version however would be. 1st sale matters just as much as any other inaliable human right i suppose if we accept the paradime b-t def. not legal. buying a used copy, great deal plus you get the manuals, (if they make them any more) i still have my R12 manuals 2 sets actually anybody want to buy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzframpton Posted December 25, 2008 Share Posted December 25, 2008 Consumers influence pricing by buying or not buying a product. It's funny that you admit this but on the other hand you blame Autodesk for being greedy with their pricing of their own software..... :wink: So which is it Mark for Autodesk's high prices.... Is it Autodesk being greedy or is it the influence of customers from purchases? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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