Drafting Measurements in AutoCAD

[Eatonpcat]

My motto is: Measure twelve times and cut three. Am I doing it wrong?

 

First I draw it in cad, to make sure everything will work... Then start cutting, erecting, Etc. Then realize I am much better at drawing than I am at building!

[Crazy J]

Well said... Had a similar experience try to cut stair stringers with a speed square! Nothing speedy about it when I'm using it.

 

I've watched them cuts stairs on This Old House, and I almost got up the courage to try it myself. But never did.

 

Three things I have found good use for the speed square (other than throwing in frustration). One is to hold on a 2x? and use it to guide your circular saw to help you make a square cut. Two is of course for marking boards for various purposes. Three is one that has come in handy that I think is not real common, maybe it is, I don't know. But when doing trim, like 1/4-round, I'll put it into the corner. It can not give me an exact measurement, but it quickly tells me if I am obtuse or acute and I can adjust the mitre saw angle by half as much, and I get some pretty good fits....

 

I'll never get it figured out for roofs....

[ReMark]

I think the term "speed square" is an oxymoron.

[Wilbri]

Folks

I found this question and the answers provided, very interesting.

I am no lumber man but understand the difference between raw and dressed lumber dimensions. In South Africa we use the term PAR (Planed All Round) meaning the faces of course, and not planing the timber round in shape.

I am no pessimist but do through experience tend to adopt the saying "If anything can go wrong tt will go wrong".

So using this approach what I would tend to do in this case as stupid as it may seem to some, is to clearly qualify my intentions.

In this case perhaps: "All dimensions shown or mentioned relate to finished size, namely the timber is dressed size." Or similar.

Now in my field of general mechanical engineering where we use piping, rolled steel plate and sections I would expect not expect to do this as all dimensions are nominal and accepted as finished sizes. namely schedule piping up to 18 nominal diameter, the O.D remains the same no matter what the schedule (wall thickness is) this can vary slightly depending on the allowable mill tolerance. The same goes for plate thickness and section sizes, other than joists, I-beams and H-beams.

I am not familiar with standard US sectional sizes, but in terms of ISO be very careful when drawing I-beams and H-beams as the overall dimensions change for similar nominal sized beams according to their weight/meter.

I made this costly mistake once as will never forget it.

I would imagine that I am preaching to the converted here, but nevertheless feel that the addition a few extra words can save a lot of embarrassment and money in the long run

[Dana W]

Folks

I found this question and the answers provided, very interesting.

I am no lumber man but understand the difference between raw and dressed lumber dimensions. In South Africa we use the term PAR (Planed All Round) meaning the faces of course, and not planing the timber round in shape.

I am no pessimist but do through experience tend to adopt the saying "If anything can go wrong tt will go wrong".

So using this approach what I would tend to do in this case as stupid as it may seem to some, is to clearly qualify my intentions.

In this case perhaps: "All dimensions shown or mentioned relate to finished size, namely the timber is dressed size." Or similar.

Now in my field of general mechanical engineering where we use piping, rolled steel plate and sections I would expect not expect to do this as all dimensions are nominal and accepted as finished sizes. namely schedule piping up to 18 nominal diameter, the O.D remains the same no matter what the schedule (wall thickness is) this can vary slightly depending on the allowable mill tolerance. The same goes for plate thickness and section sizes, other than joists, I-beams and H-beams.

I am not familiar with standard US sectional sizes, but in terms of ISO be very careful when drawing I-beams and H-beams as the overall dimensions change for similar nominal sized beams according to their weight/meter.

I made this costly mistake once as will never forget it.

I would imagine that I am preaching to the converted here, but nevertheless feel that the addition a few extra words can save a lot of embarrassment and money in the long run

 

You can't say "Finished Size" to a framing carpenter. :lol:He would go home, thinking he, the electrician, plumber, drywall mechanic and flooring installer were all done, or he might stay and shoot the breeze with the Finish Carpenter.

[Wilbri]

Thanks for your comment.

I stand corrected and accept your reasoning.

We are talking skilled carpenters here.

So thinking logically, the lumber sizes indicated on the drawing would be indicated as raw sizes but the actual drawing would be set out using finished size dimensions and this without having to clarify (note) the difference in any way. Is that correct?

[Pablo Ferral]

I'm a 'Setter out' I work here in the UK for a joinery contractor. My job is to take Architects details and produce 'Shop' drawings that our guys can build from.

 

The industry convention is that size on the drawing is the finished size. The only time you would see a 'Sawn' size is on a materials order or when the timber comes into the workshop. Most of our drawings will contain a full size detail through each moulding that the machine shop will use to set their cutters up.

 

...But don't let on, if Architects went around producing drawings that were good enough to build from I would be out of a job... ;-)

[Wilbri]

Well said Pablo.

Your comment is much appreciated. Good chuckle.

I have experienced this myself obviously from the design types who have never been exposed to the practical side of of the job.

Good drawing presentation is necessary and useful to the shop floor.

However "pretty pictures" are of no practical use to the man on the shop floor, so in the end he does what he thinks is intended and crosses his fingers.

Enough of this before I land up in the mire!

Been there too many times in the past.

[Dana W]

Thanks for your comment.

I stand corrected and accept your reasoning.

We are talking skilled carpenters here.

So thinking logically, the lumber sizes indicated on the drawing would be indicated as raw sizes but the actual drawing would be set out using finished size dimensions and this without having to clarify (note) the difference in any way. Is that correct?

 

Oh, please. Don't stand corrected, it's so uncomfortable. I think that's from Monty Python.

 

My reasoning in this case was purely in jest, meant to play on the usage of the word "Finished". Please don't scare me by accepting it out of hand.:wink: Besides, I have only been hanging about this forum for a short time and nobody knows how little I know about anything.

 

Out at the jobsite, there is a distinct difference between the Framing Carpenter and the Finish Carpenter. Each position requires its own set of expertise and training. While the framing carpenter works with only the framing material of course, and has to be able to figure out poorly drawn plans that have an impact on the structural integrity of the building, the finish carpenter is responsible for making sure the baseboards, door and window trim, and cabinets are installed straight, clean, and pretty and he needs to know what a coped miter is.

 

By the time the finish carpenter starts work on a house, the framing carpenter is long gone.

 

Absolutely, we are speaking of very skilled carpenters indeed. I would be afraid of speaking in any other manner. Have you seen the average carpenters forearms?

 

On this side of the pond our lumber as such comes in several forms.

 

Construction framing lumber (usually spruce, pine, fir, or hemlock) always comes machine planed coarse on four sides. It is listed at the lumber yard and called out on house plans in nominal sizes, which are 2x4, 2x6, 2x8, 4x4 etc., and pre cut to even 2 foot increments starting at 8'-0". That being said, the lumber is drawn in actual sizes per industry standard, which would be 1 1/2 x 3 1/2, 1 1/2 x 5 1/4, 1 1/2 x 7 1/4, 3 1/2 x 3 1/2 and so on. It is priced by the linear foot in small quantities and by the board foot in large quantities.

 

I don't remember ever dimensioning the size of a chunk of framing lumber except in length. The actual size is just understood by the highly skilled, inteligent, kind, and I might add, ruggedly attractive framing carpenter. That is why we usually just dimension framing plans same face to same face if needed at all. For a simple rectagular deck, a framing carpenter needs no more than the overall size of the deck and "2x10's @ 16" O.C." and he (or she, also ruggedly attractive) is good to go.

 

On the other hand, rough or raw lumber (mostly hardwood) comes in varied widths and lengths, usually just rough sawn to thickness and often with a raw bark edge. It is sold by the board foot (one cubic foot). It is refered to by the number of 1/4"'s there are in its thickness, so a red oak plank that is 1 1/4" thick is a 5 quarter board. So is a board that is 1 1/8" thick for that matter, rounded up.

 

"Hey luke!! Ah needs me summers about 300 boardfoot o' that 5 quarter red oak thar in the back thar." That's my American Accent.

 

Rough lumber is dimensioned on a drawing at actual size of course, since the woodworker (not as dangerous as a carpenter, and just about as ruggedly attractive) will first have to mill the wood to fit and make it the finished size before using it.

 

Well, that doesn't clear much of anything up, does it?

[Wilbri]

Dana

Thanks for your input, very informative to a guy sailing in uncharted waters.

 

So yes we are in agreement with the advice provided by our fellow members.

Monty Python what's that.

 

I am South African and we have quite a few types of python in these parts, but never come across a Monty python? Also said in jest.

[Dana W]

Dana

Thanks for your input, very informative to a guy sailing in uncharted waters.

 

So yes we are in agreement with the advice provided by our fellow members.

 

Monty Python what's that.

 

I am South African and we have quite a few types of python in these parts, but never come across a Monty python? Also said in jest.

 

Monty Python was a TV show on the BBC in the '60's or '70's. I guess you did not get that channel before cable, huh? Maybe you know who John Cleese is?. He was the sort of ring leader of the troupe on the show. It is screamingly funny and has still a huge cult following here in the USA. My kid loves them. She's 20 and has a huge CD collection of the shows.

 

South African? Then you know my neighbor's wife. She moved here from there 6 years ago. (Of course you don't, just kidding) It's like all of us from here know Jerry Lewis when we go to Paris. Well, my neighbors wife is sorta like a python, all slinky and curvy and stuff.

 

I gotta get outa here, I am way off topic.

[Pablo Ferral]

Out at the jobsite, there is a distinct difference between the Framing Carpenter and the Finish Carpenter. Each position requires its own set of expertise and training. While the framing carpenter works with only the framing material of course, and has to be able to figure out poorly drawn plans that have an impact on the structural integrity of the building, the finish carpenter is responsible for making sure the baseboards, door and window trim, and cabinets are installed straight, clean, and pretty and he needs to know what a coped miter is.

?

 

I love this sort of stuff. Same problem, same solution, different names 'Tomato' 'Tomatoe' (Rabbet, rebate)

 

In the UK a carpenter builds structures - roofs, walls and so on (framing carpenter) a joiner makes finished items - doors, windows and mouldings (Finish carpenter I guess).

[Dana W]

I love this sort of stuff. Same problem, same solution, different names 'Tomato' 'Tomatoe' (Rabbet, rebate)

 

In the UK a carpenter builds structures - roofs, walls and so on (framing carpenter) a joiner makes finished items - doors, windows and mouldings (Finish carpenter I guess).

 

And in the US a joiner is a machine for putting a straight edge on a board. Seems it's too much trouble here to pronounce the "T" in Jointer.

[MichaelJ07]

I think the term "speed square" is an oxymoron.

 

I was raised learning to use a steel square in carpentry. If my dad ever saw on of those "speedy things" on my tool belt, he would reach up from the grave and kick my butt!!

 

Interesting thread.

[Wilbri]

Michaelj07

 

My apologies to the forum but I feel forced to comment on MichaelJ07's reply.

Promise that that this will be my last submission on this subject.

Talking from your experience reminds me of my own dad. I believe that we're talking two generations ago when the modern fancy machines of present times did not exist. These folk were truly skilled artisans who prided themselves in doing good and precise work.

I was raised in the trade (fitter and turner) and really appreciated the mentoring I received from the older master artisans I worked under.

But generally those hand skills seem to me to no longer exist these days.

In terms of hand carpentry, I have yet to come across jointing and finish produced be man with machine that matches the hand work done by the old folk.

In the end I suppose it all depends on the person doing the job. Is he in it for the money only or does some personal pride in the job as well?

 

Dana with respect to you personally, from what I have gather I would expect you to to be one of the proud types who excels in producing quality work.

Not many of these species around in the world these days.

 

Yes I similarly have had my but kicked by my father and buy my journeymen as an apprentice in days gone by. Never forgotten the lesson though.

[Dana W]

Dana with respect to you personally, from what I have gather I would expect you to to be one of the proud types who excels in producing quality work.

Not many of these species around in the world these days.

 

Thank you very much Wilbri. Your praise far exceeds my humble abilities and limited knowledge.