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JimJames1978

Help with Penn Foster structural drafting plate 1

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JimJames1978

Hello and thanks for taking the time to offer help with my project. I am currently working on the structural drafting project (plate 1) for Penn Foster's drafting with autocad course. I am having a lot of difficulty understanding the instructions for the project. I've gone through and read the structural drafting course work multiple times, but Penn Foster almost expects you to know a good deal more than what they teach in the book here.

 

The project calls to reference "appendix h" which I do not have. I have looked through every book Penn Foster has sent me as well as everyone area labeled "supplement" for each module in the coursework area online and it simply doesn't exist. I have been going off the little figure in the structural drafting book to try to find measurements and the such and I am just hoping these are the correct ones.


Firstly this instruction right here has totally thrown me for a loop:

"Running horizontally between adjacent girders are 24 steel channel beams. There are two channel beams in each 18′-0′′bay, and they’re spaced 6′-0′′apart. The beam designation is C9× 20, and its dimensions can be found in Appendix H. The channel beams rest on the bottom flanges of the girders. There’s a 1′′gap from the web of the girder to the end of the channel. Put these channel beams on layer C9× 20, with a yellow color and a continuous linetype."

 

The girders are supposed to be spaced 18' apart, so how can the channel beams possibly rest on them with a 6' spacing? To test this out I rested a channel beam onto the bottom flange of the girder with a 1" space from the web then arrayed it, and here is how it came out:

image of my work

 

You can see that one of the chain beams is simply floating in unattached to anything.

 

Secondly this instruction right here is causing me headaches:

"Each channel beam is bolted to the girder with a 1/2′ ′thick angle. Each leg of the angle is 4′′, and the angle is 6′′wide. There are two angles used for each channel beam, one at either end of the channel. The angle is bolted to the backside of the channel using two 5/8′′ Ø bolts that are 2 1/2′′ long. Each bolt is positioned 1 1/2′′away from the end of the angle as well as 1 1/2′′away from the nearest side of the angle. Two more bolts with the same dimensions fasten the other leg of the angle to the web of the girder. These other two bolts are also positioned 1 1/2′′away from the end of the angle as well as 1 1/2′′away from the nearest side of the angle"

 

The instructions here call for an angle with two 4" legs and 1/2" thickness. What on earth does the 6" width reference here? Secondly, the book doesn't show what bolts are supposed to be drawn as. It simply gives the symbol and information pertaining to it's centerline.

 

I really appreciate the help.
 

 
Edited by JimJames1978

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Cad64

Have you taken a look through the "Student Project Questions" section? A lot of Penn Foster questions have already been asked and answered, so you will probably find a lot of useful information. Here's a thread that might be worth checking out:

 

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JimJames1978
9 minutes ago, Cad64 said:

Have you taken a look through the "Student Project Questions" section? A lot of Penn Foster questions have already been asked and answered, so you will probably find a lot of useful information. Here's a thread that might be worth checking out:

 

I did not see this thread when I looked through, but I will certainly give it a look. Thanks!

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JimJames1978

Having read that thread (and the other thread linked in it), I would say I've come out with even more questions and confusion than I did having gone in. Why for instance does Penn Foster tell you to draw the girders/channel beams as they are in "appendix h" (which as I stated I was never even sent) if all they are is two lines on the actual drawing?

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Cad64

I don't know much about the Penn Foster stuff other than lots of people seem to have a really difficult time with it due to poorly written course material, incorrect or missing information and instructors who never seem to respond to student questions. I think more people get their questions answered here.

 

If you're missing appendix h, maybe someone can post a pdf here, otherwise you should contact Penn Foster and ask them to send it to you.

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ReMark

1. If you do not have Appendix H then contact your course instructor and ask that it be emailed to you.  Appendix H contains dimensional data for the beams and channels you will be drawing as part of the structural project.  Don't ask me for the appendix as I wasn't a student.  However, dimensional data for structural steel shapes can easily be found on the Internet with a simple search.  Try this website for starters: http://www.structural-drafting-net-expert.com/steel-beam.html

2. Re: channels.  The C9 channels run horizontally between the W12x45 girders.  They do not run vertically.  The W12x45 girders are bolted to the W12x152 columns using the L4x4 clips.

3. The L4x4x1/2 clips are 6 inches in length.  The clips are bolted to the web of the C9 channel as well as the web of the W12x45 girders via two bolts per angle leg (for a total of four bolts).

4. Re: bolts.  I believe P-F asks the student to draw hex head bolts.  You do not have to draw the threads.  Dimensional data for hex head bolts can be easily found on the Internet.  Try this website for starters: http://lightningboltandsupply.com/hex-bolt-dimensions.html  You'll need a washer under the bolt head and another one under the hex nut.  Washer and nut dimensional data can be found on the Internet as well.  But all this information should have been sent to you via email when you signed up for the course.  If you did not receive it then ask!  You paid good money for the course so you are entitled to what you paid for.

5. Finally, there are a number of different threads that happen to cover this particular Penn-Foster project many of which include screenshots of the various "plates" the student is required to draw.  Find them, read them and use them as guidance in creating their drawings.  If you have further questions return to this thread and post them.  Good luck in your endeavor. 

 

 

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JimJames1978
4 hours ago, ReMark said:

1. If you do not have Appendix H then contact your course instructor and ask that it be emailed to you.  Appendix H contains dimensional data for the beams and channels you will be drawing as part of the structural project.  Don't ask me for the appendix as I wasn't a student.  However, dimensional data for structural steel shapes can easily be found on the Internet with a simple search.  Try this website for starters: http://www.structural-drafting-net-expert.com/steel-beam.html

2. Re: channels.  The C9 channels run horizontally between the W12x45 girders.  They do not run vertically.  The W12x45 girders are bolted to the W12x152 columns using the L4x4 clips. 

3. The L4x4x1/2 clips are 6 inches in length.  The clips are bolted to the web of the C9 channel as well as the web of the W12x45 girders via two bolts per angle leg (for a total of four bolts). 

4. Re: bolts.  I believe P-F asks the student to draw hex head bolts.  You do not have to draw the threads.  Dimensional data for hex head bolts can be easily found on the Internet.  Try this website for starters: http://lightningboltandsupply.com/hex-bolt-dimensions.html  You'll need a washer under the bolt head and another one under the hex nut.  Washer and nut dimensional data can be found on the Internet as well.  But all this information should have been sent to you via email when you signed up for the course.  If you did not receive it then ask!  You paid good money for the course so you are entitled to what you paid for.

5. Finally, there are a number of different threads that happen to cover this particular Penn-Foster project many of which include screenshots of the various "plates" the student is required to draw.  Find them, read them and use them as guidance in creating their drawings.  If you have further questions return to this thread and post them.  Good luck in your endeavor.  

  

  

 

Thanks for your assistance. I have been looking through those threads and I have gathered some important information. Unfortunately a lot of those threads do have old and broken links but I will make due.

 

As far as the 4x4x1/2 angles, that 6" dimension is in the Z plane no? I can't figure out how else you would draw a 4x4 with 1/2" thickness otherwise. Looking at some pictures of what these angles actually look like in real life, it appears that they would need to be drawn in 3d in order to show that 6".

 

This is what I have currently for the foundation plan after reading through some of those other threads.

image

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ReMark

The 6" dimension becomes important when the angle clip is drawn in elevation.  The clips, when drawn in plan view, would look like the letter "L".  I'm positive one or more of the P-F structural project threads has an image of a plate (i.e. - drawing) detailing what a typical clip would look like.  Given that the clips are bolted to the web of the channels and girders you would not see them in plan view since they would be hidden by the flanges on the girders and the legs on the channels.  When you do draw the clip detail you'll have to include the bolts as well.

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AustinC

I am currently doing the same project and so far @ReMark , you have been a god send for the previous projects. But as far as the structural project, I have read everything, watched the videos, did all the links. Out of the all the illustrations this one raised a question.

 

On 3/28/2012 at 12:03 PM, lulumara said:

Here's the revised drawing.

STRUCTURAL.pdf

 

The initial plate 1, do the beams "supposed" be shown as such (looks more professional) or a line like I have? Foundation_Plan-Model.pdf From what I can tell from the wonderful instructions from PF that we all know and love, it does not specifically say one way or another, however what is the proper way of doing it in the "real world" if you happen to know.

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ReMark

Austin: Yes, I have seen structural steel drawings created that have used a single line such as you have shown in your foundation plan.  Keep in mind though that the beams would still extend to the web of the columns and not terminate at what would be the edge of the concrete pier.  One other thing.  If you are going to use this method I would give the line some thickness by using a polyline and assigning it a width.

 

As an aside I don't think it matters much to the instructors which method the student uses.  They are teaching students how to use AutoCAD.  They are not teaching students a particular discipline (i.e. - structural, civil, electrical, HVAC drafting).  Understand?

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AustinC

I understand, and thank you for pointing out the beams not extending, I overlooked that aspect.

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JimJames1978

I'm having a ton of issues drawing the south elevation plan. The wording in this project certainly makes things a lot worse as well. I've looked at the images from the other threads and especially this one right here as a guide:

South Elevation.jpg

 

But sadly I don't understand a lot of what is here. Maybe the instructions have just changed for the course I am not totally sure, but I'm certainly not seeing how the elevation plan is supposed to end up looking like that after following the directions. Also I'm not really in the market for just copying someone's drawing and not having the slightest clue as to why I am drawing what I am drawing. That won't help me at all.

 

Here is what I have so far and then I will list off what issues I am having https://imgur.com/a/8dCxFHd

 

Here are the instructions I am confused by:

I am having issues here with the general layout of the elevation plan. We are told that the columns have a '6" poured in place concrete slab that connects to the first floor.' How do you show this? Secondly if this is supposed to be the elevation view of the foundation plan, wouldn't the length of it be 72'? That's how long the 5 pillar north/south sides of the elevation plan are. This drawing is showing 77'-4" and has a lines that comes off the pillars from the sides that I can't figure out the purpose of. It does say that there is a 4" drain around the outside of the building though you are instructed not to plot this later on in the elevation view but that still doesn't add up.

 

You are given "clear distances" from the bottom of the first/second floors to the ceilings. In this case they a clear distance of 10'. What exactly does this mean and what are you expected to do? It sounds like a call pertaining to rebar but I have no idea what it is I am actually supposed to draw.

 

You are instructed to draw 26 gage metal siding with a particular shape and then are told it's "on the inside and outside of the building". There is no instruction as to where this siding is supposed to be. You are also then told to "use texture lines to show small patches only" of the siding. What does that mean? It looks kind of like this person just drew a donut, but if you look closely at the horizontal line he has drawn here near the second floor elevation, it looks like the shape you are instructed to draw for the siding.

 

The instruction you are given for the rebar on the columns is to draw #6 rebar at 8" OC both ways. You are then told there is a 3" clear at the bottom of the footing and 3" clear all around the footing with a 2" overlap at the bottom. I looked at the image in the booklet given as the example on how to draw it and I believe it is correct but would someone mind looking at it and telling me if that is what is supposed to look like? It's the thick blue line in the footings.

 

Thanks for the help friends. I feel like I hit a serious brick wall with this project that is making me really regret ever haven taken Penn Foster's course instead of just taking autocad courses directly from them. I found the Olereson Village project to be mostly fine (i only mad minor issues) as most of it was stuff you spent 10 exams practicing for, but this project was just so out of left field compared to the rest of the Penn Foster course work. I'm not really sure how they expect someone to know as much as you need to know for this exam from a tiny 30 page booklet.

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AustinC

So far this is what I have, South_Elevation Model.pdf I understood some of the instructions but the biggest help has been the illustrations and descriptions on the different threads. So matching what the instructions say and the images I created what I did. (The beams are raised in mine currently because I haven't worked out the placement yet with the plate & welds) As far as the siding, I used steel hatching vertically to represent the face of the siding. My understanding of texture lines are just divisions between the hatching and the rest of the drawing so you can show what it supposed to be while not obstructing or cluttering the drawing. (I did the same with the earth at the bottom) The overall height of the structure is something that I have jumped around on since different illustrations show different things. (hoping after the plate is done and measuring out the ten feet I just duplicate the first floor up for the second floor to get the overall height in addition to the lip around the edge) As far as the rebar someone else will have to provide incite into how it is done per the instructions, I just did my own thing.

 

Hopefully between the quick explanation and my drawing it can give you some incite. But if you need some clarification on anything ask away and I will try my best. And by all means if you or anyone sees something in my drawing that is "wrong" based off of the wonderful PF instructions let me know.

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AustinC

Updated Version for the night, South_Elevation Model 5.pdf everything done except for dimensioning & the roofing from what I can tell (plotted in monochrome for easier viewing). For anyone that needs a better look at what is called for, assuming its all "PF correct".

 

 

If anyone notices something off let me know!

Edited by AustinC
forgot to denote roofing as a thing not completed yet

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JimJames1978

Appreciate the help. I got a few of my questions answered by looking at your image. That was kind of my gut feeling on how the slab was supposed to be drawn, but the instructions didn't make it clear at all. I realize that one of the reasons this project seems so much harder than the Oleson village one is you aren't actually given a real reference image for most of these plates. Still pretty confused as to why those girders are placed where they are (that spacing doesn't make sense when you compare it to the foundation plan) and how the rebar is actually supposed to be drawn, but I do feel far less stuck than I was yesterday.

 

One thing I'm still having an issue with is the proper sizing for text. If I scale my drawing 1:100 (or however you would write the proper equation for that in the correct scale for structural) would that mean the text size should be 500/32" for the drawings? That would 5/32" at that scale which is what the booklet tells you is the correct size for text on structural drawings. Am I correct on that or should it be something else?

Edited by JimJames1978

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AustinC

Since the drawing is in 1:1, when you dimension or use annotations the text will be very small in comparison to the drawing itself. For the foundation plate the dimensions are unreadable but that is how PF wants them so oh well. As far as the annotations on plate 1 I created a new style so I can label the things needed and they are readable. The same is said for plate 2 however instead of using my custom style I just used the standard and set the height myself. Just to make sure everything is covered, the titleblock is 1:1 as well so when you scale it up to surround the drawing (mine is 90) you modify the scale value in the titleblock this does not affect your drawing itself. In the past projects there has been some things that I did not like the way they looked or they were wrong in the instructions so I modified them so they look correct and better and I have received 100s on the past projects so far. So by that I think as long as you get the gist of it and everything looks correct and the way it should be, you should get a good grade.

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JimJames1978

I've got the elevation plan basically complete and have started working on section A. Still very confused on where the girders and channel beams are supposed to be located in both the elevation and section plates. If you look at the cutting line for section A on the foundation plan and use that as your basis, the girders should in theory be spaced 18' apart just like they are in that plan right? And the channel beams should be 6' spaced as they are in that? So why are they not drawn like that in people's images posted on here? It's not that important in the elevation as they are mostly there for reference, but in the section view, you are to draw ceiling tiles underneath the channel beams so the layout has to be right on them.

Edited by JimJames1978

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ReMark

Yes, the girders are spaced 18' on center to match up with the columns.  The 6" channels run between the girders in a east/west direction.  Every student who has drawn them this way has passed the structural project.  None of the structural elements are there solely "for reference" as they form an integral part of the overall construction of the building.  Perhaps your A & B cut lines are incorrectly located or you are misinterpreting the instructions which is understandable given that it is not Penn-Foster's intent to teach structural drafting.  They are attempting to teach AutoCAD although they don't even do that very well.  

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AustinC

Plate 1 in a since is just a top down view of the structure. Yes the girders are spaced 18' & channels are spaced 6', however they are just illustrations not actually vertical...

illustration.thumb.jpg.b544fd8d01850fbed1a498c8cb250bbe.jpg

To understand this easier here is a screenshot of the 3d render posted here...

1061707362_555b4ab4-f1d6-4bf2-8680-148b0a29499f_653484c3-c963-455e-a8f0-042ba7cfd126_static_0_0_Structuraldrawing.thumb.jpg.aacdc93ccd580e4335bbc03d840e05ea.jpg

As far as the dimensions, all of your subsequent drawings should represent what you have in plate 1. So one plate 2 is just the view from the south side of the building(southern elevation) so on and so forth.

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JimJames1978

 

Right thanks guys. I think the W girders are supposed to align the bottom flange with the roof line of each floor correct? Because when I did it like that, I ended up with girders that were the exact dimensions center to center as they are in the drawing posted here as a reference from a few years ago and that appears to be how that person did them as well. I can't find anything in the text that would specify that nor in the actual project booklet but that seems to be what makes the most sense. From that point I just followed the detail directions for the W girder-C beam connection (resting on the flange, 1" away from the web) and it looks correct. Maybe I am just getting too caught up in the actual block drawing icon of the girder but it seems like you need to some degree which ties into my next question.


What I am currently struggling with is the instruction we are given for the pour-in-place concrete. At first I drew the bottom of the slabs at the levels given for the 2nd floor and roof elevations. However when I looked up drawing images for concrete it seems like the girders are there to act as the support for the bottom of the slabs. Am I correct in that? The instructions for both the 2nd floor and roof pour-in-place don't specify a height for either anywhere in the project booklet. Should I just make them 6" tall like the concrete slab on the footings? I did a mockup for the 2nd floor concrete to see how it looked and this is how it came out:

https://imgur.com/a/EbkJig0

 

Does that look correct?

Edited by JimJames1978

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